Hereditary
01:27:45
About
Heads-up! It’s another family friendly, feel-good romp from Ari Aster, as we watch his stark debut “Hereditary”. A film which features a great deal of old-person nudity; reminds you to take your bloody EpiPen with you to social gatherings (parties, funerals etc); and demonstrates that not picking up after yourself is how you get ants. Along the way we discuss Alan Moore’s “Show Pieces”, “Scare Me”, “Hubie Halloween”, “Buffy The Vampire Slayer” and the BBC Radio adaptation of “Children of the Stones”. Watch (or re-watch) to avoid spoilers, and join us. APOLOGIES FOR ANY SOUND QUALITY ISSUES -CURRENT QUARANTINE MEASURES MEANT WE HAD TO RECORD THIS EPISODE REMOTELY.
Who's gonna take care of me?
Famous lines
- "Evil runs in the family."
- "I never wanted to be your mother." — Annie
- "DON'T you swear at me, you little shit! Don't you EVER raise your voice at me! I am your mother!" — Annie
- "Charlie, you're alright, now. You... are Paimon. One of the eight kings of Hell." — Joan
Quotes verified against Wikiquote.
Transcript
Show full transcript
Lee Good evening and welcome to Horror. I'm Lee.
Chris I'm Chris.
Adam And I'm Adam.
Lee !
Chris Hmm.
Lee And we are here to show what I think could possibly be one of Chris's favorite horror movies today, on account of the fact that it's bleak as arseholes.
Lee So exactly his cup of tea.
Lee Uh, we're covering Hereditary.
Lee Um, ahead of time, Chris, over the excitement and enjoyment of Hereditary, did you, uh, did you watch anything else this week?
Chris I, I have, in in stark contrast, I decided to watch on someone's recommendation, Hubie's Halloween.
Lee Yes, I also watched Hubie's Halloween.
Chris That prepared me perfectly.
Adam Well, apparently, originally Adam Sandler had the, uh, the Gabriel Byrne role in Hereditary.
Lee Ha!
Adam I think he, I think he had to drop out of it to do something else.
Lee What did you make of it, Chris?
Chris I thought I thought there was a lot of good in in Hubie's Halloween.
Chris If you took out Adam Sandler, it would have been a really good film.
Lee I know.
Lee Do you know, if he had just dialed his character back.
Lee This is the problem.
Lee Everybody was playing it like a kind of, like Adam's laughing at me already.
Lee What?
Adam I just love the idea that you think you could tell him.
Adam Like you have the concept of dial it back, huh?
Lee Yeah.
Adam I don't think it was Adam's product.
Lee His his production company as well, so I mean.
Chris But what's funny though, right? Ben Stiller is in it, and it was him in, uh, what's it called? Tropic Thunder.
Lee Tropic Thunder, yeah.
Chris who talked about, yeah.
Chris Like so, add that.
Chris Like.
Lee Well.
Chris They must know.
Lee Yeah, I almost wonder if it's.
Chris But it's owned at, you know, it's not aimed at us, is it?
Chris It's it's aimed at us probably at the age of, you know, 14.
Lee See, this is the problem, I found it, I couldn't work out who it was supposed to be for.
Lee Because it had too much swearing in it for you to show a small child, but Adam Sandler's performance was like Ernest P. Worrell.
Lee Effectively, like it was full on Ernest Saves Christmas or Ernest Goes to Camp.
Chris Yeah.
Lee So and everybody else is playing it not straight, but straight.
Lee And yeah, so I was like, well, he's acting as if he's trying to sell this to small children, but they all keep saying shit.
Lee Um.
Chris And and like you say, the the mother's T-shirts.
Lee Mother's T-shirt collection, I want more than anything in the world.
Adam Well, you mentioned that because you did say the T-shirts were good.
Chris Muff's Diving School.
Lee The mother has bought a load of T-shirts from the thrift store, um, but she doesn't know what any of them mean, so she's just keep wearing like a T-shirt with boner doner written across the front.
Lee Like it's just like it's hilarious.
Lee It really.
Lee That was the thing, like he had some really good elements to it, but he just took his performance out, I would have enjoyed it much more.
Chris Yeah, yeah, it's low, it's like, isn't it? Just, yeah.
Lee It's not a terrible film.
Lee Um, but I don't think it's going to be an enduring Halloween classic, unfortunately.
Lee But good effort.
Lee I'll just for the record, I did suggest that maybe we all watched it.
Lee Before this evening.
Chris I just could not.
Lee Bring myself.
Chris I think you should have watched it and then given us some of your your own impersonations of him.
Adam No.
Adam I think I'll stick with the, I think I'll stick with the gift I sent.
Lee Yeah.
Adam Good cat guy, hi.
Lee We would definitely lose listeners, I think if, uh, we would offend somebody if Adam were to do his impression of Adam Sandler.
Chris Yeah.
Adam Bearing in mind what we have had to cut out, so yeah.
Lee Well, yeah.
Lee 20 minutes out of last week's episode, but yeah, let's not go back into that.
Adam Then we've got to cut this.
Lee Uh, excellent, well done, Chris.
Lee Uh, anything else?
Chris No, no, that's that's me this week.
Lee Sterling effort, fantastic, well done.
Lee Um, Adam, have you caught up with anything?
Adam I've listened to on BBC, BBC Radio 4 and on the BBC Sounds app, you can listen to the whole of, they've done an adaption of the 70s kids show, um, like drama, Children of the Stones.
Lee Oh, okay.
Lee And we had a recommendation to watch that, didn't we, from a listener?
Adam I think we did actually, or certainly, we've had a few because, oh, yeah, because there was, um, I think there was some Lovecraft, like they'd been doing quite a few good adaptations on there.
Adam Um, and this was by, this is done by Battle Gap, who are the guys who did, uh, recent audio versions of Blood on Satan's Claw and The Hellbound Heart.
Lee Nice.
Adam The novella that Hellraiser is based on, but they stick to the, uh, they stick to the book much more closely.
Adam Um.
Adam They've updated it, and I'll admit at the very start, I was kind of, I'm not sure if I like this, because like the the main two characters like a father and daughter.
Adam In the original it's father and son.
Adam But in this, I think I found both of them a bit sort of like, oh, fuck off, because they're both, you know, they're both hurting and stuff like that.
Adam But it's sort of, yeah, it was still a bit sort of, no, can you, yeah, just, no, this sounds stupid.
Adam Um.
Adam But I gradually got into it and, uh, the character of Kendrick, who is like the main villain, he's played by Reece Shearsmith.
Adam Um.
Adam The dad, which I found quite, which was quite odd, like I say, that I did find his character a bit annoying, it's Steve Oram.
Lee Oh, okay.
Adam Who is, who is really great, so I do think it might be more of a writing thing than, certainly than a performance thing, because I do like Steve Oram quite naturally.
Adam And Ralph Ineson's in it as well, but it's, it is, it's well done.
Adam But it takes its time getting there because the original bit, like they've, they've sort of updated it, so the the daughter's got a, does like a podcast herself.
Adam Of like strange and mysterious stuff.
Adam And it all feels a bit sort of, mm, oh, you've crowbarred that in a bit.
Adam Uh, but then you get the essence of the actual story, sort of, when once you actually get into the story itself, much, actually, I mean, in fairness, that is probably much how the first, the the actual original series works, in that the first episode is very sort of, because it's the setup, it's quite slow.
Adam But then as you get drawn into it, you, you know, it does actually get into some spooky and quite creepy areas.
Adam Um.
Adam So, definitely, definitely worth a listen.
Adam Um.
Adam It's and like, it's all there, it's all free, I mean, I think I, I listened to it most like through an afternoon because I think the longest episode's maybe 20 minutes.
Adam And some of them are only like 15 and stuff like that, so it's quite, it's quite quick.
Adam Um.
Adam A quick listen, and it, and also it probably would give you an indication whether you wanted to try out the original.
Lee Yeah.
Lee Yeah, definitely, if you can appoint me in the direction of this, I'm very interested to check it out, to be honest.
Adam Yeah.
Adam Yeah, also.
Adam If you go on like, if you just go on the BBC website on like iPlayer or whatever and put in Children of the Stones, um, it you'll find it.
Adam And I think it's, it's up for at least a year.
Lee Excellent.
Adam They've been pretty long term with a lot of this stuff now, which is good.
Adam Um.
Adam Uh, the only other thing that in the week that, fucking hell, how many times am I going to say, uh, sorry.
Lee It's all right.
Adam In the week, the trailer for The Show came out, which is the film written by Alan Moore, like which is, uh, I think, possibly Andrew O'Neill's in it.
Adam Uh, he certainly got a thank you on the director's post about the, uh, film coming out.
Adam Like the trailer coming out.
Adam Um, and it's getting quite good, uh, reactions.
Adam It's like, I think it's been premiered at a festival this week.
Adam And seems to be getting some good notices and everything.
Adam So I went back and watched before this, the director and Alan Moore, like, the same director, Mitch Jenkins and Alan Moore had created what they called showpieces.
Adam Which were like almost like proof of concept for this film to get it funded, but they did it through Kickstarter and stuff like that.
Adam And I just rewatched those last night in preparation, and I do have to recommend them.
Adam They are sort of very.
Adam It's very Alan Moore, but it's like, it's almost very, it has a very British.
Adam Sense ability to it, but equally it's basically, it's about people dying and going to not hell.
Adam But a nocturnal version of Northampton.
Lee Ha!
Adam And and here's the best bit, that appears to have been created by like an equivalent of Peter Cook.
Adam Because it's basically Alan Moore is part of a double act called Metatron and Matchbright, and obviously Matchbright, um, sort of Lucifer.
Adam And Metatron is like Metatron, which is the voice of God.
Lee Yeah.
Adam Uh, so Frank Metatron and Nikki Matchbright, who were this 60s double act, very much like Pete and Dud.
Adam But somehow Metatron was an occultist, and he somehow after their death created this other world where he is God.
Adam And Dudley Moore is the devil.
Chris Hmm.
Adam And it's, yeah, it's a very sort of dark, funny, odd thing.
Adam And now I am desperate, even more so than when I just watched the trailer.
Adam Because I'd seen, I'd seen them before and stuff.
Adam But even before I, even once I saw the trailer, but yeah, watch, rewatch them the other night, I was just sort of like, right, I've got to see this fucking film now.
Lee Yeah.
Adam Because even down to the fact that I know that the, I noticed, and this is the first time I've noticed it, the person who is playing the main character is Tom Burke.
Adam Who is the son of.
Adam The original Doctor Watson in, uh, the Jeremy Brett Sherlock Holmes.
Lee Oh, yeah.
Adam David Burke, I think it is.
Adam Who turned, who appears in, um, some of the MR James adaptations that they did a few years back.
Lee Yes.
Adam And yeah, Tom, and it's his son, Tom Burke.
Adam Um, who also, I believe, was in, I think he was in number 13.
Lee I think he's like, yeah, he played the Lane Lord.
Adam Yeah.
Adam And, um, yeah, he's very, um, but I noticed that his voice appears in the very first film.
Adam Like he's credited as the voice on the end of the phone, and it's like, I didn't, you know, it's, it's literally nothing.
Adam It's you barely hear it.
Adam But obviously it's like this has been planned, planning and sort of bubbling in their heads for so long.
Adam That they'd already contacted this guy that's like, right, eventually you're going to play the main role.
Adam But can you literally phone a performance in for us for like a day?
Adam So, yeah.
Adam Um.
Adam But no, it's, I highly recommend tracking down showpieces if you can.
Adam And I myself, I've got to see this damn film.
Adam Because.
Adam He's getting good notices, but also from people who haven't necessarily like watched all of showpieces and stuff, so I think it's something that probably works on its own.
Lee Hmm.
Adam But, uh.
Lee Excellent.
Adam Yeah, so and that's all the weather.
Lee You saying about trailers.
Lee Actually, I wasn't going to mention it because I've watched a buttload of stuff, but I'm going to keep it brief, I'm going to try and keep it down to a minute per movie-ish.
Chris I just noticed something weird happened to Craig, I don't know if that's important or not.
Adam What's happened to Craig?
Chris He's disappeared and turned into two dots that are spinning around.
Lee I can still see him.
Adam I can still see him.
Chris Okay, all right, fair enough.
Lee Uh, I'm not editing that out.
Lee Uh, yeah, we're recording on, uh, Discord, and, uh, Craig is doing something weird for Chris.
Chris Yeah.
Lee Right, so talking of trailers.
Lee I saw the trailer this week, um, from, Adam has got a lollipop there.
Lee Uh, and it's a pumpkin, lovely.
Chris Oh.
Adam It's a Jacob's Trikaroo.
Lee It's.
Adam It's a lovely orangey biscuit.
Lee Oh, lovely.
Lee It is Trikaroo, well spotted.
Lee I was like, he picked it up and he had a bite missing out of it.
Lee Um.
Adam No, that's being a fat bastard, that's why I had a bite.
Lee Which leads me into the trailer.
Lee Uh, so the trailer for Fatman.
Lee Has anyone seen the trailer for Fatman?
Adam No.
Chris No.
Lee Holy shit.
Lee Right, now.
Lee It's coming out this Christmas.
Lee Mel Gibson plays Santa Claus.
Lee Santa Claus has given a horrible turn of a child, a piece of coal.
Lee The child has hired a hitman.
Lee And it's Santa Claus versus a hitman.
Lee And Santa Claus is played by Mel Gibson.
Lee It looks hilarious and really, really good fun.
Lee Yes.
Lee So I shall be checking that out.
Lee It it was one of those somebody put the trailer up and I was like, film called Fatman.
Lee And then I started watching it.
Lee I was like, he's supposed to be Santa Claus.
Lee And then it all just unraveled and I was like, it's Santa Claus with guns.
Lee Fighting another man with guns, it's just going to be exceptional, so go and check out that trailer, because it's really got me excited.
Lee Um.
Lee So, stuff I've watched this week in order.
Lee Um.
Lee Number one, I watched Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the original movie from 1992.
Adam Yeah.
Lee Um, it was strange.
Lee Um, I quite, I quite enjoyed it.
Lee Um.
Lee But it hasn't aged particularly well.
Lee Um, and the problem is, again, like we were saying with, um, Adam Sandler in, uh, in Hubie.
Lee The, so the main vampire is Rutger Hauer, and his main assistant is played by Pee-wee Herman.
Adam Yeah.
Lee And he's in a completely different movie to everybody else, everybody else is doing it kind of straight comedy, and he is doing this crazy slapstick mental nonsense.
Chris Yeah, he does, doesn't he?
Chris But just as a weird aside, I saw that Tim Burton directed the first Pee-wee Herman film.
Adam Yeah.
Adam Pee-wee's Big Adventure is Tim Burton.
Chris Yeah.
Lee I've not seen Pee-wee's, uh, Big Adventure or Pee-wee's Playhouse, maybe I should.
Chris But he does play that character in everything, doesn't he?
Chris He's he's.
Lee Yeah, I think he does, unfortunately.
Lee And the thing is, he doesn't look anything like him in Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
Lee Like he he looks, and that was why I was like, why is this guy acting completely different?
Lee Like it's funny because Jennifer said it was the one bit she remembered was his death, because she remembered it being hilarious.
Lee And it is, but it's so tonally different to the whole rest of the film.
Chris But that actually makes me want to watch this just to.
Lee It's a good film.
Lee I I enjoyed it.
Chris I think I might have seen it at the cinema, possibly.
Chris I I'm fairly certain I watched it because I I seem to remember I watched this, but then never watched the series.
Lee I never saw the series.
Lee Adam saw all of them.
Chris I I know loads of people.
Adam I saw series 5 and then bloody, um, Granada lost their digital license.
Lee Yeah.
Adam Halfway through a series, the bastard.
Lee Um.
Lee Yeah, so I I mean, yeah.
Lee It's pretty good.
Lee Um, it's funny how bad the vampires look now.
Lee Like they look really, really shit.
Lee And and I think I saw this, so this came out in '92, I think I saw it on TV.
Lee When it was initially premiered on TV.
Lee So that must have been about '95 and I haven't seen it again since.
Lee Um.
Lee So, yeah, it's been a long time for me.
Lee Um.
Lee I then followed it up the next night with a film that I have seen very recently, because I watch it at least every six months, I watched Elvira, Mistress of the Dark.
Chris Hmm.
Lee From 1988.
Lee Solid movie.
Lee We need to cover that, it's so much fun.
Lee It's it's so campy and fun.
Lee Uh, and the terrible 80s song that has to be in every film is right at the very end.
Lee So you can watch up and until that point and then just turn it off.
Lee It's great.
Lee Um.
Lee So then I went to Shudder, um, and watched their new release that came out this week.
Lee Um, I watched Scare Me.
Chris Hmm.
Adam Oh, yes.
Lee Um, it should have been called Yes And The Movie.
Adam Oh, all right.
Adam Okay.
Lee It I really, I I enjoyed it.
Lee I genuinely did, I was a little bit let down by the end, but.
Lee I couldn't work out how they were going to end it anyway.
Lee It's it's.
Lee Um, so the idea is it's a guy, he wants to be a writer, so he's gone out and he's hired, um, a little cabin on, um, like a park in upstate New York.
Lee Where they just have these little log cabins set out and they're all separate.
Lee So he goes and stays in it during the winter, during the snow.
Lee To lock himself in and effectively write.
Lee And while he's out jogging, he bumps into the woman who's hiring the cabin opposite him, and she has just written the biggest best seller, best selling horror movie.
Lee Best selling horror book in, like, forever and everyone's claiming it's one of the greatest books ever written.
Lee So.
Lee Um, they have a power cut that night.
Lee And she goes over to his.
Lee Because she's like, look, we're locked it, we've got nothing to do, we've got no power, we can't do anything.
Lee So she goes over there and they decide to tell each other scary stories to keep each other entertained.
Lee Um.
Lee But they kind of, they don't just tell them, they kind of act them out as they go in, so it's like having two drama students locked in a room trying to out improv each other.
Lee Um.
Lee Genuinely, really, really funny.
Lee I really liked it.
Lee Um.
Lee Uh, he's a bit of a dick, but he's supposed to be.
Lee Um.
Lee Yeah, and she's just thoroughly hilarious and awesome.
Lee Um.
Lee But yeah, it's it's a really good film.
Lee Uh then a third character comes in about halfway through, who's just totally falls into their little dynamic and it it goes really well, it's a really good film.
Lee So.
Chris Is is funny because from that, you know, it's hard to see how they make that into a full film, but yeah, it's in the details.
Lee Well, it's it's a bit like, um, it's a bit like an anthology film, but instead of having the wrap around story and seeing it.
Lee It's one person going, right, I'm going to tell you a story, it's about a werewolf, and this happens and they kind of they put special effects on.
Lee So that although it's only one person talking and acting it out, like they put the silhouettes in, so when he's pretending to be a werewolf, his shadow looks like a werewolf.
Chris Oh, okay, yeah.
Lee And when she's doing a funny voice, they put like a big echoy thing on it, so it actually sounds like a demon voice, yeah, and it's, yeah, it is like being locked in a cabin with two hilarious drama students.
Lee It was really good fun.
Lee Um.
Lee I then watched, uh, Charlie Brown, the Great Pumpkin.
Lee Because it's Halloween tradition, it's amazing, don't need to say anything about that.
Lee Other than if you've never watched The Great Pumpkin, it's The Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown.
Lee Go and watch it, it's 25 minutes long, it's an absolute classic.
Lee And show your children.
Lee There's nothing scary in it.
Lee It's fantastic.
Adam There's there's a redone, uh, not redone, but like a modern version of Peanuts.
Adam Doo, doo, doo, doo, Peanuts.
Adam Um, yeah, they haven't adopted that as the thing.
Adam But, um, I was, yeah, um, we watched it a few times with Ted.
Adam And Christ on a bike, every single one of them's bloody annoying, though.
Lee Oh, really?
Adam Yeah, they're just, they're all a bit of a personality.
Adam I know that's the whole point.
Adam But it's like, oh, they're just gags.
Lee Yeah.
Adam So.
Adam Oh, dear.
Adam No.
Lee Yeah.
Adam So I might have to give that a miss, although we did show Ted Nightmare Before Christmas today.
Lee Oh.
Adam Um, I think he enjoyed it because when, when it finished, he threw a paddy.
Lee Oh.
Adam I think he was, I think he was quite enjoying it.
Adam And also I, there's one bit in there that I just forgot about, which felt like every band I've ever been in.
Adam Is I forgot about the bit where he's trying to get the town, you know they've got like the town band in it.
Adam It's just like all the with all the accordions and stuff like that, trying to get him, trying to get them to play like, uh, Merry Christmas or whatever.
Adam And it just, just immediately minor keys it and it just sounds like a funeral march.
Adam That's like, yep, that's, yeah.
Adam Let's, let's suck the joy out of this one, come on.
Lee I have been in that band with you.
Adam Yes.
Lee Um.
Lee Excellent.
Lee Right.
Lee So.
Lee Without further ado.
Adam Or a don't.
Lee Or don't.
Adam Sorry.
Lee Um, I'm very keen to hear.
Lee So, Chris.
Lee Being the morbid son of a bitch that you are.
Lee What did you make of Hereditary?
Chris Well, of course, as you guess, no surprises here, that that is a a masterpiece of of filming.
Chris Yeah, very nice.
Chris Um.
Chris No, I I did mention to Adam just before we started, I'll say again now that I knew it was Ari Aster, so I had that in my mind, I knew that it was not a comedy.
Chris So I was like, that's it, that's fine, we're settling in, this is going to be good.
Chris But as it was unfolding, I was like, ah, no, I don't actually know what film Ari Aster did that we watched.
Chris And of course, you know, he's going on, and in in a way, possibly that was good.
Chris Because I did have the surprise where it's like, I don't know where this is going.
Chris So, um, obviously at some point, probably halfway through, I realized, oh, yes, of course, Midsommar.
Chris Because he's definitely got some similarities.
Chris Um.
Chris But yeah, that is a that is a pretty seriously dark, uh, tragedy.
Chris Uh, but, you know.
Chris Um.
Chris I do remember, and I was going to ask, how much details have we got about this?
Chris I'm assuming Adam has quite a lot.
Chris But I do remember that Dean was the one that gave us quite a lot of the explanation on Midsommar.
Adam On Midsommar, yeah.
Chris To do with the the symbols.
Adam Well, yeah, a lot of, again, a lot has gone into this in terms of like.
Chris Okay.
Adam Uh, that.
Adam I've.
Adam I've read some, I've read a lot of stuff like interviews with Ari Aster on the way up to.
Chris So just.
Chris Just set me, so why, what is like why is he so fascinated to do both Midsommar and this around similar themes?
Chris Like why, like has he had some just crazy experiences?
Adam Because apparently.
Adam He's just got, he's got a, he's already written I think is something like 10 scripts.
Adam And they're the 10 scripts he wants to do.
Chris Okay.
Lee I want to see every single one of those.
Lee Right now.
Adam But he and he, um, yeah, from what I gather, he's sort of everything's been pre-planned.
Adam He seems to be very, it almost feels like a conspiracy how he does the film.
Adam Because it's like, for example, the composer on this is a guy called Colin Stetson.
Chris Well, he did a very good job.
Adam Yeah.
Adam And apparently like Ari Aster was in contact about with him about doing the film two years before they made it.
Chris Okay.
Adam Yeah and that's, do you know what I mean, that's a long gestation period.
Adam And he obviously has, like Toni Collette apparently called him the most prepared director that she'd ever worked with.
Chris Well, he he certainly, I mean, she's great, but he certainly worked well with her.
Adam So, well, he turned up with like a 75-page, um, like shooting script for the cinematographer.
Adam Before they'd even scouted locations or anything, so he, and but then his whole thing with, um.
Adam Yeah.
Adam Not so much with Midsommar, because I think by then he'd been rumbled, but he seems to be a bit off-handed in interviews for Hereditary about the occult stuff.
Adam Just saying, oh, you know, I think it was just, it's, you know, it's just bits and bits and bobs that you pick up and you know, and it's like, you've, there's.
Adam There's a lot more to it than that, and I mean, Midsommar obviously in terms of like the runic stuff.
Adam And the, uh, sort of paganism and things like that, and similarly with this.
Adam I mean, I'm going to go, I'm going to go straight into it because I've got it, I've got quite, there's quite a quite a bit on here.
Chris Detailed tone of.
Adam So.
Adam King Paimon is a real figure.
Adam That I was, I was trying to find a way of putting basically saying, he's a real demon spirit.
Adam Or demon or spirit.
Adam But when I say real, what I mean is is that outside of this film.
Lee Yeah.
Adam That is and he, uh, King Paimon is named in a number of early grimmoires, including The Lesser Key of Solomon.
Adam Johan Weyer's, oh, wow, I was a bit bold when I wrote this one down, because I was like, yeah, I'll you'll read that, no problem.
Lee Okay.
Adam Pseudomonarchia Daemonium.
Chris Hmm.
Adam And, and here's one for you, blast from the past, the book of Abramelin.
Lee Ah.
Adam Which, as discussed on Welcome to Horror, episode 34, A Dark Song.
Adam Which features the Abramelin ritual.
Lee It does.
Adam And again, that was a film that we talked about where it had a lot of genuine sort of occult research going into it.
Adam And it felt real.
Adam And similarly with this, you know, it's, um.
Adam So I'm going to.
Adam Well, actually, yeah, I've got, I've basically got, here's the bio of Paimon, of King Paimon, sorry.
Adam Of King Paimon, sorry.
Adam One of the Kings of Hell, with various texts describing him as either the third, sixth, ninth, or 22nd King.
Adam The grimmoire of Pope of Pope Honorius states that he is the King of the West.
Adam And the Abramelin text refers to him as one of the eight dukes.
Adam He is loyal to Lucifer and is commander of two further kings.
Adam Bebel and, Abam.
Adam I was trying not to say Balam.
Lee Thank you.
Adam He also commands with variance across sources 25 to 200 legions of spirits.
Adam His appearance is described as a man riding a dromedary, wearing a crown.
Adam The camel too is sometimes crowned.
Adam He is preceded by men playing loud music.
Adam Particularly crashing symbols and trumpets, which is obviously something that Colin Stetson injects into the soundtrack.
Adam Whenever there's anything more supernatural going on and things like that.
Adam And in fact, someone reckons that, uh, the name Paimon means the sound of tinkling or the sound of bells.
Adam But it was like in an undisclosed language and this was someone not that long ago.
Adam It was like, but so.
Adam Um, again, that sort of turns up on the soundtrack.
Adam Um.
Adam King Paimon is described as having a feminine face features, but uses and identifies with male pronouns.
Adam He may have the webbed feet of a waterfowl.
Adam There you go.
Adam Um.
Adam If you summon King Paimon, you must look to the northwest and make an offering accompanied by candles, symbols and music.
Adam If he appears alone, a sacrifice must be made to summon Bebel and Abilam, the two kings he commands to do his bidding.
Adam The conjurer must first command King Paimon to speak in their own language, otherwise he will only speak in his native tongue.
Adam All requests must be made without fear.
Adam In terms of his powers and what he can provide for the conjurer.
Adam He is mainly identified as a teacher with a knowledge of all sciences, arts and other secret things.
Adam He can bestow power and influence on the conjurer, including dignities, yeah, dignities, titles, familiars, and power over others' will.
Chris Okay, so.
Chris Wait, wait, so, so this is for summoning him.
Chris And he can bestow that on the conjurer.
Adam Yes.
Chris But in this, I thought they were saying that, um, Peter becomes Paimon.
Adam Well, this is yeah, but this it's the cult who worship Paimon.
Adam Who want Paimon on Earth.
Chris Right.
Adam So that he can grant them these powers.
Chris Okay.
Adam You know, so I've got the bit where it says riches to the conjurer, and really, is there any more plain expression of power really these days than just being rich?
Lee Yeah.
Adam You know, it's, it's crass, but it's very true that if nowadays that that is purely what equates to power.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Lee Look at the president of the US.
Adam Exactly.
Adam And so.
Adam But apparently according to the book of Abramelin, um, he has the knowledge of past and future events, the powers of flight, materialization of people and objects, breathing underwater and the reanimation of the dead.
Chris Hmm.
Adam Which obviously that seems to be much more Hereditary's take on his powers, the conjurer will need to fulfill King Paimon's own requests.
Adam In order that he may share his powers.
Adam So it's presumably in terms of Hereditary, he wants physical form on Earth.
Chris Hmm.
Adam And so they've provided that and they've and hope to gain from that.
Adam Um.
Adam Before the fall, King Paimon belonged to either the angelic hierarchies of dominions or cherubim.
Adam Sources differ.
Adam And the sigil that's used in the film, uh, which appears on the necklaces, the door mats, it's on the telegraph pole that decapitates the daughter.
Adam That is the symbol of King Paimon.
Adam That is.
Lee Yeah, I'm looking at it right now on Google, it's it's everywhere.
Lee Yeah, it's just like, it's it's a very it seems to be a relatively well-known, well not well-known.
Lee But if you Google it, yeah, it's all linked in, it isn't just the movie.
Lee It's a.
Adam And.
Adam But.
Adam Here's.
Adam Here's Ari Aster talking about it, um, I wanted to avoid the devil, it's been done so many times.
Adam So I researched, looked for a demon in demonology, and Paimon struck me as one that made sense.
Adam I have no ties to the occult, and I've heard from a few sources that even Paimon Paimon is pass A.
Adam And obvious among occultists.
Adam Ultimately, Paimon was a product of me, he came in pretty late, and I just needed a name in mythology.
Adam Think.
Adam Even if that's that's the, I think you've, you've done more than just picked a name.
Lee Yeah.
Adam You know, it follows a lot of the the things that are in this mythology.
Lee Yeah.
Adam Are very, yeah, they just, it's just all in the film.
Lee It seems to play his genius down quite a lot, from what I can see, like he he's done so much background research.
Lee And made everything so relevant and brilliant, and then kind of goes, it was just a bit off the cuff and it's like, no, it it wasn't, like that's the thing about his stuff.
Lee It flows so well, it's someone who's really done the research and really understood it.
Lee And really ingrains it in the story.
Lee As he say.
Lee It, you know, I mean, look at The Exorcist, incredible film as that is, you could just switch Pazuzu with anybody and it almost doesn't matter, whereas with this it is, it's integral to the whole story, it's it's all around that mythology.
Adam Yeah, so it's obvious that even when he's picked this, even if it was like a late stage, he's then gone back and revised the work and you know, and made that effort.
Lee Yeah, and made that effort.
Adam He's made that effort.
Adam Um.
Adam But also, um, and I have to say, I think Joan's great.
Adam Because she does just feel like a lovely old woman.
Chris Yeah.
Adam Until you realize what's going on.
Adam But, um, she's been, uh, she was in True Detective.
Adam She was the murderer's wife in True Detective, you haven't made any flowers all me lately.
Lee Oh, God.
Adam Yeah.
Adam And, um, but she's also in a film called Compliance, which is a film about a genuinely horrible incident, um, and I've seen, I've didn't remember from that, but I'd now realizing she's in it.
Adam Again, she's very chameleon.
Adam She's she doesn't always.
Adam Um, you know, it's not just dafty old lady roles or anything like that, or you know, she she can be basically girl Hitler in The Handmaid's Tale.
Adam So, yeah, it's sort of, it's quite sort of.
Adam She's quite impressive.
Adam But I do love like with the mat where it's the mom made matts for everyone.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around, I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
Adam Genuinely because the first time I was like, oh, no, so she's.
Adam Apart from apart from it does really.
Adam I mean.
Adam It's like that bit where.
Adam You know, she she's obviously because there's obviously like there's one's where it's.
Adam Um, like her mom in the hospice.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And.
Adam Sort of and it's it's weird because watching it.
Adam This time around.
Adam I was like, fuck me, they really signpost that, didn't they?
Lee Yeah.
Adam The very first.
Adam No.
Adam That didn't.
Adam Didn't register.
Lee No.
Lee No.
Adam And that's why.
Adam That's why I think I enjoyed it more on the second watch.
