The Witches
00:47:12
About
It’s Hammer Time, and we’re looking at some of the more under-appreciated output from The Studio That Dripped Blood”; first up it’s 1966’s “The Witches” (aka “The Devil’s Own”). A film in which a headmaster cosplaying as a priest is seen as a harmless quirk; the local butcher puts paid to the adage “laugh and the whole world laughs with you.”; and your choice of drinks is gin, gin or more gin. A box office failure; “The Witches” was not considered a worthy part of Hammer’s horror output, languishing for decades as a mere footnote to both the story of Hammer Films, and the career of star Joan Fontaine. Thankfully, that reputation has shifted with time, as later generations have rediscovered it. The story is a blueprint for folk horror, whilst predating those movies that would come to define the genre and Quatermass creator Nigel Kneale’s subtlety witty script means this feels a lot more fresh and modern than some of the more melodramatic gothic horrors the studio produced, with a set of strong female characters driving the narrative. Whilst some may find the heavily choreographed climatic ceremony comical, if the movie has drawn you in, these sequences can actually be eerily mesmerising. Watch (or re-watch) to avoid spoilers and join us.
Transcript
Show full transcript
Lee Good evening and welcome to Hora. I'm Lee.
Chris I'm Chris.
Adam And I'm Adam, so you don't have to.
Lee Oh!
Lee And we are here as promised for a oh an absolute gem of a movie in my personal opinion.
Lee We are here for 1966's Hammer presentation of The Witches.
Lee There will be spoilers and swearing, just to warn you.
Lee But yes, other than that, business as usual.
Lee Chris, as this is I'm assuming your first viewing, what did you make of it?
Chris It would be a tad shocking if it wasn't, I think. But yeah, yeah, no it was. well, let's get it right out the way, not what I was expecting from Hammer. I'm sure I'm not the only person to have said that.
Adam
Chris And another very charming, very English, really enjoyable, especially on a relaxing Easter Sunday.
Chris Yeah, like where is it? So, it kind of feels I would have thought ahead of its time.
Chris you know, you've got very good female lead, kind of two, two female leads really, ultimately.
Adam Oh, absolutely, yeah.
Chris So, witchcraft in an English countryside, gaslighting and mental health, gender and power, and outside versus community, and a 7,000 year-old sacrificial knife from ancient Mexico.
Chris You know, what more do you need in a film?
Adam Oh, mate, yeah.
Adam I think you hit the nail on the head there though, Chris.
Adam That the this is not I think it's getting a bit of a foothold now.
Chris Oh okay.
Adam Because people are watching Hammer and actually can now see these, you know, I've had the chance to see everything.
Chris I suppose it's the the other films you think of from Hammer, there's a it's much more overt.
Chris This this has some very good, subtle undercurrent of, you know, something dark sinister going on. But yeah, it's not until quite a bit later in the film that you fully appreciate exactly what it is.
Adam Yeah.
Adam It's not it's not an out and out horror, it's certainly not one of the gothic classics, it's not a monster film.
Chris Yeah.
Adam and yeah, so it's.
Chris There are monsters in it though. Once again, humans.
Lee Yes.
Adam Is it mankind or man cruel? Who knows?
Adam But yeah, there's I think that the it sort of doesn't have it didn't have much of a reputation.
Adam It was sort of like seen as like at the time I don't think it sort of did particularly well because I think the Hammer name by then was.
Adam Oh yeah, you come here and you get for it's day quite extreme, you know,
Lee gore and
Chris Yeah.
Adam Possibly a glimpse of a lady's bazoom.
Lee Yeah.
Adam You know, that sort of thing. And yeah.
Adam The Witches is is a very different sort of horror film.
Chris Yeah, definitely more in the psychological.
Lee Yeah, slow build.
Chris Yeah.
Lee Yeah, yeah.
Chris I can imagine, is this is this an earlier sort of folk horror? Is it?
Adam It really is. It's one of the sort of earlier it's kind of one of the earlier examples of.
Adam Like absolute traditional sort of folk horror.
Adam And sets up a lot of the usual folk horror, you know, it follows the usual folk horror trope of.
Adam Outsider comes to a village and slowly uncovers the sort of conspiratorial nature or the evil that lurks there.
Chris I too, what it reminded me of Hot Fuzz.
Lee Yeah.
Chris It might be because we've seen it recently, but yeah.
Adam I saw one person online refer to it as Hot Fuzz with interpretive dance.
Lee Oh.
Adam And yeah, it's now it is it is a quite sort of.
Adam Because because the script basically, you like you said, it's unusual that it's a female led film.
Adam But Joan Fontaine, who is the main character in this.
Chris Yeah.
Chris I don't think I've seen her in anything else.
Adam But I assume.
Chris She has done some other films.
Adam She was a massive, massive like name in in her time.
Adam I mean she was like she was headlining films throughout the '40s and '50s and '60s.
Adam And basically what had happened was.
Adam I mean, she is the only she's the only actor to ever win an Oscar for being in an Alfred Hitchcock film.
Chris All right.
Adam She won it for Suspicion.
Adam And the I think the year before she'd been nominated.
Chris Is that one we should watch?
Adam She'd been nominated for Rebecca, which is another Hitchcock film.
Chris Okay.
Adam So and so she worked with, you know, she's worked with loads of great directors and.
Chris
Adam you know, she was in you know, she she'd been in loads and loads of films.
Chris Well, were they were those two horror films?
Chris I know Hitchcock did a range.
Adam No, they're more thrillers.
Chris Yeah.
Adam But then I would argue that this is kind of more of a thriller.
Chris Yeah.
Adam Technically, I don't think anything necessarily supernatural happens.
Chris The voodoo elements seemed like you might get more of it, but they were they didn't turn into anything, but you know, when you see that at the start, you're thinking, okay, well, this this could lead on to something.
Adam Yeah, it's sort of it's because it's it's a bit of a false start because you naturally assume that they're going to do, you know, it's Hammer, so you that's probably another thing.
Adam People are like, oh Hammer are doing a voodoo film, you know, or whatever like that.
Adam And and thankfully for like modern sensibilities, that isn't actually the case.
Adam It is like it's a proper.
Chris It's a very subtle.
Adam Yeah, it's a proper it's a proper sort of English folk horror is that sort of thing of here's the picturesque village and here's what's rotten underneath it.
Chris Sure.
Adam And yeah, and but I mean like.
Adam So Joan Fontaine basically she was not getting any roles in Hollywood and literally it was because she was older.
Adam And when I say older, she was 48 when you.
Chris Yeah.
Chris Well, no, she's not obviously when you said that.
Lee Yeah.
Adam Yeah.
Adam It's ridiculous is that horrific thing that is still ongoing but certainly was a feature of its time.
Adam That she was not getting any roles because now she was an older woman, that was it.
Adam So she actually bought the rights to a book called The Devil's Und.
Chris
Adam Which this is based on.
Adam And so she came to Hammer and said I've got the rights to this film, do you want to make it, but I'm starring in it.
Chris That's cool.
Adam And he's one of the executive producers.
Chris
Adam So and and it's weird because Hammer have this sort of Hammer, because what's the one like.
Adam Bette Davis is in a Hammer film, isn't she? She's in is it The Nanny or?
Lee Yes, yes.
Adam And and there's the other one something like the what is it the reunion, the family reunion or something like that.
Adam I can't remember.
Lee I don't know.
Adam But yeah, she's so Hammer had do have this sort of thing of they would get in American stars who were like on the down down turn of their career sort of thing.
Adam So it wasn't unusual, in fact, like their first films like The Quatermass.
Adam The first horror films they did like The Quatermass films, that was from a time when they were getting.
Adam Again, they would get Hollywood stars in for a bit of name to sell it to America.
Chris
Adam So like Quatermass has got a guy called Brian Don Levy is Professor Quatermass in those films and he's not great, you see.
Adam He plays it like a sort of American PI.
Lee Yeah.
Adam Yeah.
Adam So it's a bit weird.
Adam But again, yeah, so Hammer have Hammer had quite an association with taking like American stars in because they added a bit of name, but it weren't necessarily it wasn't necessarily because those people were at their peak in their career at that point.
Lee I mean, this is just a marriage made in heaven.
Lee Because it's I I love folk horror as everyone knows, yeah, and I think this story is absolutely brilliant.
Lee I've got to be honest, I think after The Devil Rides Out, I think this is my second favourite Hammer movie out of all of them.
Adam Wow.
Lee But I I've made a point with it because The Devil Rides Out I have seen to absolute death.
Adam Yeah.
Lee I still watch it regularly, but I I could just shut my eyes and watch it from beginning to end with no effort.
Lee Whereas this one, because I discovered it later, so when I got the ultimate Hammer box set and it was in there, it was one of the ones I hadn't actually seen.
Lee So when I watched it, I absolutely loved it.
Lee I said right, I am not going to watch this to death.
Lee I'm going to say it's one of those I I've probably watched three or four times, but every time I do, it's absolutely amazing.
Lee So I've made a point of not ruining it for myself.
Lee I just find it such an enjoyable watch.
Adam I think you you've what what you've got there is you've got the classic case of, let's face it, Devil Rides Out.
Adam You're quite happy in pints.
Adam But this this is some this is a slightly a slightly rarer drink that requires savouring.
Lee Yeah.
Lee yeah, and it's great, I've got to be an honourable mention as well, it's I'm assuming that it's been taken from this.
Lee it is also the name of one of my favourite black metal tracks of all time, off of Akercocke's album, The Goat of Mendes.
Lee skin for dancing in.
Lee So yeah, so I think so.
Lee I I knew that album long before, and I'm sure I watched this for the first time and I went, oh.
Adam Sorry, what album is it, mate?
Lee The Goat of Mendes by Akercocke.
Adam Oh, right, no, what's the what's the track?
Lee Oh, a skin for dancing in.
Adam yes, yeah.
Adam Which is that's that I mean, that's perfect, that little rhyme.
Adam And actually, that's one thing that I think is there's a the thing that's great about this is that you get what is a fairly.
Adam Like I say, it's almost like a thriller, so it feels a bit sort of genteel.
Adam And then there's little snatches of it where because it's Hammer, they're like I mean, I think this might have been one of those ones where Hammer actually asked the board to give them an X.
Adam After they'd like said, oh, it's an A.
Lee Yeah.
Adam Like in terms because they were like, we sell on the basis we get ex.
Chris Oh.
Adam Yeah.
Adam You know, so they sort of but the the bit where.
Adam Doucet's brought out of the like found drowned.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And they just walk him through the village.
Adam It's actually really quite fucking shocking.
Lee Yeah, it is.
Adam And like, you know, he is it's a horrible cops, you know, it's really quite vivid.
Adam And a lot stronger than you would have in say a film like the same film but not done by Hammer.
Lee Yeah.
Adam You know.
Adam It would be it would be there, it would still be a shock moment and you but you wouldn't have it quite as gruesome as they do it there.
Adam You know.
Adam And it's sort of there.
Adam There are a couple of moments and the cat.
Adam The cat in the doll.
Chris Yeah.
Lee Yeah, yeah.
Adam It's so freakishly weird that you don't know what's going on.
Chris Yeah.
Adam The first time I watched it.
Chris I was like, is it a human in there?
Chris What, like what?
Lee You've got no sense of scale.
Chris How is it making that weird noise?
Lee And it just.
Lee That's why you're like there's something wrong there.
Adam It's really it's really sort of face level sort of like makes you feel a bit queasy sort of like, what actually is that?
Adam And yeah, I mean it's and and a great, you know, a fantastic cat, Vesper.
Chris Especially because they do that as you're hitting the point where it's like they're going to be skinning a girl.
Chris I'm I'm pretty sure you know about that at that point.
Chris Yeah, and it's like, okay, this is getting dark.
Lee
Lee You're saying about that about, you know, what what you'd know and what you don't know so far.
Lee That's the only downfall of this, I would say, and it isn't the film, it's my C is my DVD of it.
Lee So on the Hammer ultimate Hammer collection, obviously the big twist, I know we said we there were going to be there were going to be spoilers.
Lee So Stephanie Backs, who is the woman who appears to be helping out the whole way through, turns out to be the head witch.
Chris Yes.
Lee But in the ultimate collection, the title card for the special features, play movie, but is her in the like at the in the headdress with the hand of glory and everything on it.
Lee And just gives the game away, really.
Chris It does a little bit.
Lee Yeah.
Adam That's that's like putting a certain person on the front of Dune.
Chris They should have that in like secret secret.
Chris Area.
Lee Again, it's one of those.
Lee I don't know if I would have noticed.
Chris Yeah.
Lee At the time, but when I watch it now, yeah, you see it immediately go, oh yes, if I'd forgotten that twist, you've just 100% reminded me of what's about to happen.
Adam Yeah.
Adam Yeah, so K Walsh, who's Stephanie.
Adam is, yeah, both of them have like her and Joan Fontaine, I think.
Adam Fucking amazing because they.
Chris Yeah.
Lee Incredible.
Adam Oh, not only that, but also it's that lovely thing of polite evil.
Chris Yeah.
Adam You know, where she's sort of she's still quite.
Adam It's it's not it's not a sort of trapping person.
Adam Well, it is, it's trapping her by making her complicit in it.
Chris
Adam But it's really from a desire of, no, come on, it's fun.
Chris Yeah.
Adam Come on, you'll love it.
Adam I and and also there's a lovely sort of class sort of attitude of classism with it.
Adam Where it's like, come on, you join in because I have to put up with these fucking yokels.
Lee Yeah.
Chris Yeah, and you're like me.
Chris You know.
Adam Yeah, yeah, we we know.
Lee It's it's that it's like it's not like the Slip, where it's the like you say though, the evil person who's pretending to be nice.
Lee She really is nice in some ways, she just doesn't give a shit about everybody, which is completely wrong.
Lee But yeah, as you say, when she comes out, it's not like she's suddenly turns into this evil sinister, she's exactly the same person, but she's just going, yeah, all right, you called me, this is what I'm up to.
Lee And it's brilliant and absolutely outstanding.
Adam And I also I have to say the Batistes' house, carry on screaming.
Lee Yeah.
Adam That's all I could think was it just looked like lots of wood paneling and very vivid purples, you know.
Lee Yeah.
Lee I I always forget as well, Leonard Rossiter.
Chris Oh, so I was going to mention him.
Lee He just appears on screen and every time I go.
Chris Yeah.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And I think he does very well.
Adam At one point, he does put his hand like he does put his hands on his back.
Adam I know he does at one point, but I think that is just I think that's just him.
Adam I think that's just how he's done.
Lee Yeah.
Adam But I read a really good book lately, it might not be for everyone, well, or or say maybe not for everyone.
Adam but there's a book called Code Damp by Sophie Slay Johnson.
Adam And it's basically like a a study of Leonard Rossiter as Rigsby and Reggie Perrin in the Rise the Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin.
Adam about it has a sort of occult working with Leonard Rossiter as an almost trickster shaman figure.
Adam And it's fucking great, it's bloody madness.
Lee It sounds amazing. I love the sound of this.
Adam And but for
Adam But yeah, I think that he's obviously, yeah, so you got Rise Rise and Damp, which me and Claire and Reggie Perrin.
Adam Me and Claire because I've been reading Code Damp.
Adam Me and Claire have been re-watching them.
Chris
Adam And that's.
Adam And actually, thank you Lee because I found the card because you and Jennifer bought me the complete Rise and Damp one year, and I've still got the card in there like the Christmas card.
Adam It was a little cat card.
Lee Oh.
Adam So.
Adam So thank you again.
Lee Thank you very welcome.
Lee Again.
Lee That was a while ago, I don't even remember that.
Adam But then but again, it's that weird thing.
Adam Like Leonard Rossiter worked with Kubrick.
Lee Yeah.
Adam You know, there's people in here who sort of like not it's not just you know, it's a right pedigree of actors.
Lee I was going to say Michelle Deries as well.
Lee Is just an.
Lee I mean, a much younger in this, obviously, so it was fairly early in her career, but she carries so much of this film with her performance, it's absolutely brilliant.
Adam Yeah, she does it brilliantly and so obviously she was.
Adam Betty in some Mothers do Have Them.
Adam We're not doing the impression.
Adam And but also she's in another great folk horror, she's in Blood on Satan's Claw.
Adam And she's fucking brilliant in that as well.
Lee Yes, yes.
Adam Where she's one of the wayward like school children and they're all fucking horrible that lot.
Adam You know, they're really She's really good at that and and again, it come it comes out in this.
Adam You know, it's sort of, yeah, I mean and she also she was she was married to Edward Woodward.
Adam And it is official Thomas law that you have to do that.
Adam There are certain things you mention whenever someone comes on the screen.
Adam And one of them is Michelle Dece, and you have to go, you know, she's.
Adam Do you know she was married to Edward Woodward.
Chris Yeah.
Chris Just a.
Adam Just a thing, and if I don't do it.
Adam I will have to go I will be beaten the next time I got.
Adam But obviously she was in I mean, she was in Inside Number Nine, and I forgot she's in that really good Rivals of Sherlock Holmes with Donald Pleasance.
Adam The Horse of the Invisible.
Lee I don't think I've seen that.
Adam Oh man, you've got to see that.
Adam That's a it's a Carnacki story.
Lee Oh.
Adam Donald Pleasance plays Carnacki and he goes to check into the.
Adam a ghost a ghost horse.
Lee You're going to have to send me that after we finished recording.
Lee Because I don't forget.
Lee I need that in my life.
Adam And Michelle Dece is in it as well.
Adam And she's great.
Adam And it's yeah, it's really fucking good.
Adam That's the Rivals of Sherlock Holmes is a show I recommend anyway.
Adam but yeah, I'll yeah, I'll remind me at the end, but I'll I'll send that over to you.
Adam but the so like so Joan Fontaine had obviously the book that she is so sorry, yeah.
Adam So the book is called.
Adam The Devil's Own and it was by Nora Loft, who is a crime writer.
Adam But she wrote she the is published under the name Peter Curtis.
Lee Oh.
Adam but then the script is adapted by Nigel Neal, who created Quatermass.
Adam And that definitely comes up in there because I think that the interactions with the village.
Adam Like the people.
Adam The one thing that Nigel Neil manages to do is everyone sounds like a human being.
Chris Yeah.
Adam You never no one ever sounds off.
Adam He just has a real ear for how a character sounds and across sort of, you know, across sort of like continents and things like that.
Adam He just gets everyone right.
Adam Or sort of like like their social position or whatever like that, he just manages to do that really well.
Adam And I think it it there's bits of this that come out.
Adam But when she but when Stephanie's saying about witchcraft is a science.
Adam That's so like that's a pure Nigel Neil thought that is.
Lee Yeah, absolutely.
Lee Once you know once you know his style, you could pick it out even without having spotted his name at the beginning, it's got that.
Adam Definitely, definitely.
Adam And he apparently kept trying to persuade the filmmakers that they should make it a black comedy because he couldn't get he said he couldn't get the the tone right of the book.
Chris Interesting.
Adam So and he was like so he was he was trying to say make it a black comedy.
Adam Which I think is kind of in there.
Adam But it's not it's not a funny film anymore than it's you know what I mean?
Adam It's not as it's not a scary film in that sort of sense.
Adam It has its little moments.
Adam But but it's definitely not a funny film, but it it it does have it feels very Royston Vasey.
Chris Yeah.
Chris It's almost on the edge of like being either way, you know, you're sort of held up to this point.
Chris I think there was a bit the the butcher when he was cutting up the rabbit.
Chris I was like.
Adam Yeah.
Chris He just.
Adam He just keeps laughing.
Chris Yeah.
Lee Yeah.
Adam You know, and I mean that's just like that's Father Ted, that's the laughing priest, you know what I mean?
Adam It's just like, yeah, because that's Duncan Lamont who is in.
Adam Quatermass and the Pit, the Hammer Quatermass, he's the drill guy Sladen.
Adam So it it all jumbles up and comes back itself.
Chris And then when he picks picks her up later in the car as well.
Adam Yeah, that bit that bit is that bit I I can definitely see in League of Gentlemen.
Adam There's
Chris Like don't don't get in any cars with any strange men.
Chris I appear to be in one.
Adam But but also and I and I love the I love the fact that it's basically there.
Adam He doesn't, I don't know, the the brother, I can't think of his fucking name now, Allen.
Lee Yeah.
Chris Yeah, yeah.
Adam It's like so he turns up dressed as a priest.
Chris Yeah.
Adam Then it turns out he's not a priest, but he just wears it to feel better.
Chris Yeah.
Adam You know, or to feel, you know, as as like a sort of form of mental armor, so that he'll feel comforted by the fact that, you know.
Adam And I try to be a priest, but they they wouldn't have me.
Adam You know, and it's sort of it's like it's almost like he's, you know, if he'd want to be a policeman, he'd be a security guard.
Adam But there's no sort of thing of that.
Adam For for being a priest.
Lee You throw all one of your heart.
Lee But it works perfectly for the misdirection.
Lee Because when you don't know who is running this coven.
Chris Yeah, absolutely.
Lee You you are convinced absolutely that it's him.
Adam And he's utterly shifty, but as it turns out because.
Adam He's covering for Stephanie because he is in no way shape or form equipped.
Chris Yeah.
Chris Yeah, to do to do.
Lee The way, you know.
Adam He is just yeah.
Adam And but yeah, just that sort of.
Adam But and.
Adam And again.
Adam Normally in a film like this, he would definite that would definitely have put him in the villainy stakes.
Adam He's one of the few people left in the village at the end of this.
Lee Yeah.
Adam All the coven move out.
Adam And he's going.
Lee Yeah.
Adam You know.
Adam And it's like, oh yeah, no, I'll just oh, I think, you know, do you know what? I think he's husband material.
Lee Yeah.
Adam You know.
Lee And and not wanting to skip to the end quite, you know, too quickly.
Lee But yeah, that that coven bit at the end that I love.
Lee I always forget how long that goes on for.
Lee Like that whole ceremony lasts for ages.
Lee And again, it's you if you once you've seen it the once, you pick up on it the next time when they drop in how she's going to basically overthrow them all.
Lee But yeah, so you're just waiting for it to happen the whole way through.
Lee And it's just that anticipation of when is she going to is she going to do it in because she really does wait until the last minute.
Lee She could have just snuck a bit of glass or something in and done that at any point before it all went bat shit.
Adam Down and throw up down the Yeah.
Lee Yeah.
Adam There you go.
Lee I I would have thrown up whatever that sludge was she kept feed fighting over. I don't know what that was supposed to be, but it looked grim.
Adam I I think that whole sequence.
Adam Because that's again, I think that's one where that's where it's sort of like divides people.
Lee
Adam But I think if you've I think if you've gone along with it, you go along with that end sequence.
Adam Because and.
Adam It is odd choreography, do you know what I mean?
Adam It's sort of it it's very it proper is like movement as opposed to necessarily dance.
Adam Yeah.
Adam But it's sort of, yeah, and the fact that it's actually clearly I mean, there are there are clearly actual dancers in there.
Adam But you know, the fact that.
Chris I think that's what makes it almost seem more real again.
Chris Like.
Adam The fact that the cast are in there and everything and have been, you know, I mean usually with this sort of thing, you think, oh, they wouldn't have bothered.
Adam But they've they've they've.
Adam Sat there and thought about this and done it really fucking well.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And it does the only thing I find with that bit, though, or or any of the sort of coven sequences.
Adam is why do you go and put on rags?
Lee Yes, I said exactly.
Adam And yourself up.
Lee I was like, why are you wearing all these like you were wearing perfectly respectable clothes earlier and now you're wearing ones that look like you've put them through a threshing machine.
Lee I don't understand.
Lee But again, I don't know it.
Lee You know, it might be one of those, you know, like when they used to, was it Crowley and stuff used to bury their clothes in a graveyard, so it had the smell on it and all that kind of stuff.
Adam It it could well be I mean, it could be any number of reasons.
Adam It could just be that Stephanie's a terrible snob and it's like, right, you lot.
Adam You've got to dress like as a of, you know, a BBC Sunday cereal beggar.
Lee Yeah.
Adam Where I'm here in like, you know, some of the some of the most beautiful finery you'll ever see.
Adam Yeah.
Lee
Adam Martin Stevens as well.
Lee I really liked in this, who obviously everyone knows from Village of the Damned and The Innocent.
Adam Yes, yes.
Lee a fantastic child actor.
Adam I think this is the last film he did.
Lee Oh, was it really?
Adam Yeah, I think or it might have been like nearly the last film he did.
Adam Because obviously he got a bit older.
Adam He went on to be a yeah, he was yeah, I think it was.
Adam apparently he just lost interest in acting and became an architect and meditation instructor.
Chris All right.
Adam So that's he just he'd obviously just had the bug as a kid.
Adam And then he was like, yeah, that's enough.
Adam Yeah, got bored of it now.
Adam So.
Adam Which is a can I just say is a lot happier than the majority of child stars.
Chris Yes, does seem to be, yeah.
Chris That was probably the right decision.
Lee Yeah, you to stay in Britain and not go to Hollywood where it all turned into a big horrible mess.
Adam Yeah, I mean it's yeah.
Adam It's and and did you spot Aunt Barru?
Lee No.
Chris No.
Adam You know Mrs. Creek the shop owner, Michelle's mom is, yeah.
Lee Yes, you're right, it is.
Lee Oh my God.
Lee I did not put two and two together with that.
Adam Or as I've put it down here, oh Barru, it's fucking Star Wars.
Lee Yeah.
Adam I was just like, whoa.
Adam And actually one of the right near the start of it you got Rudolph Walker, who's like now just done years in EastEnders.
Adam but he was in Love Thy Neighbor and
Adam he was in he was in The War Games and he was in The Thin Blue Line and the all new Alexi Sa show.
Adam And but yeah, it's just that that's one of those ones where it's just like, he's just been in stuff for years.
Adam And barely looks different, it's quite impressive.
Adam But yeah, so it's weird when you look at it.
Adam There's quite a few people who are sort of like comedy performers or sort of made their name in comedy productions like Michelle Dece and Leonard Rossiter and stuff like that.
Adam And yeah, but it just goes to prove that fact that it is, you know, it's still acting.
Adam In fact, it's harder because you you mustn't laugh.
Lee Yeah.
Adam When people are being brilliantly funny, so it's yeah.
Lee Yeah, and I I love seeing Gwen Davis as well because she she also is in The Devil Rides Out as well.
Adam Yes, of course, yeah.
Lee But she's one of those actors I haven't seen her in anywhere near enough.
Lee I think these two and she's in an episode of Sherlock Holmes, the Jeremy Brett ones, I believe.
Adam Yes, she is.
Adam Yeah, because she's she's in the Master Blackmailer.
Adam The Charles Augustus Milverton one.
Adam Yeah, she's in that.
Adam but yeah, there's it's quite nice that they've got.
Adam Because the guy the the father Doucet he's in a really good show called The Guardians, which I watched, which is like a 70s show about.
Adam I mean, you might want to watch it as an instruction manual, but it's basically Britain under a fascistic government.
Adam So you you know, you might might want to just, you know, tip your head that way.
Adam But his but his wife is
Adam She was Alphagon's neighbor, the woman who used to live upstairs in Alphagon.
Lee Oh.
Adam And it's like, yeah, there's loads of fucking comedy names in here, but then my mom always used to say, yeah, but Britain had three actors back then.
Lee Yeah.
Adam Yeah.
Lee Yeah, I think this is one of those cornerstones, I don't think this film gets anywhere near as much love as it deserves because when people think Hammer, they do think you know, the Dracula franchise and the Mummy franchise, and they think about those huge franchises that went on to do stuff.
Lee Yeah, and I just feel like a bit like The Devil Rides Out, this is one that because it's only one film, just kind of gets forgotten about.
Lee But the same with The Nanny.
Lee The Nanny is a fantastic movie.
Lee So.
Chris So is that another one that's not not for horror?
Lee Oh no, that yeah, no, that.
Adam thriller, isn't it? It's that grey area where you get thrillers into horror and vice versa.
Lee Yeah, it's highly unpleasant and uncomfortable, but it's not like a supernaturally.
Lee Yeah, it's that's a great movie.
Lee Really good.
Adam Yeah.
Adam Because I remember when that box came out, they they said, oh, no, it hasn't got any of the decent Hammer films in there, and I remember you buying it and just going through them and being like, no, The Witches is fucking amazing. Nanny, The Nanny's great.
Adam Do you know what I mean?
Adam And it was like all these because I think they'd been packaged in as, oh, well, these are the films we're not going to be able to shift on their own, so we'll stick them in like a 10 disc box set or something like that.
Lee But that was why it was perfect, because it's all the ones I didn't it was all the stuff like Vampire Zombies and The Reptile and Yeah, all the stuff that I hadn't taken the time to I mean, to the Devil was in there as well.
Lee But you know.
Lee You know too much.
Lee Yeah.
Lee Yeah.
Lee but yeah, and that's why a lot of these films aren't recognized the way I think they should be.
Lee So they're the ones that I just hadn't seen until I got the box set, which is why it was absolute gold to me, because I was like, this stuff I prefer to the big franchise ones.
Lee And and most of them don't get aired or hadn't had any kind of proper like publicized releases, so I hadn't been to track them all down, so when they all just arrived, thankfully as a Christmas present, all nicely wrapped up, I was like, oh my God, there's so much content to go through.
Lee It's incredible.
Chris So I didn't realize the Wicker Man was Hammer.
Chris And we still haven't done.
Adam No, The Wicker Man's not Hammer.
Adam The Wicker Man.
Chris It's not Hammer.
Adam Okay.
Adam No, The Wicker Man is actually, I is it Charlamagne, it's like Christopher Lee's own company or Jake.
Chris Oh, okay.
Chris Oh yeah, no, I've seen it's under the non-Hammer section that was the top, that's why.
Adam Yeah.
Adam But but I mean it is it's weird because of all the things for Hammer to have sort of kind of innovated in.
Adam Is a lot of The Witches then goes on to be the staples of folk horror to come, but that's much more the 70s.
Lee Yeah.
Chris Okay.
Adam There's also a really good, if you want there's a I think there's a BBC TV film called Robin Redbreast.
Adam I think it's BBC.
Adam But it's it's old and but it's it's after The Witches.
Adam I'm sure it is.
Chris Oh yeah.
Adam But but it's it's very it's very similar ground.
Adam And it's actually kind of because it's all in black and white, I'm not sure, I don't know whether it was because the colour version's been lost or whether it was always in black and white.
Adam I can't remember.
Adam But the only version you can see is the black and white one.
Adam And it is oddly creepy, you know, but it is very.
Adam It's it's very sinister in ways that the but it's sort of follows the same sort of path as as The Witches.
Adam Yeah.
Adam
Adam But it's yeah, it's it's a nice companion to The Witches.
Adam It's not trying to be.
Adam It it's.
Chris I mean it's an interesting to see you.
Adam Yeah, it's definitely definitely worth seeking out.
Adam Because I remember I remember when I saw it, it was sort of like this is kind of like The Witches.
Adam But it's its own thing and to be fair, The Witches it like we said, it's an archetype.
Adam Especially folk horror is that the outsider turns up.
Adam I mean this could be, you know, there's there's bits of the.
Adam I mean, there's definitely bits of this in like The League of Gentlemen and Mr. King.
Adam Because they're all taking from those same sort of sources, but yeah, Robin Redbreast is well worth tracking down.
Adam Because it's very sort of light, it's it's a nice companion to The Witches.
Adam It's not trying to be it's kind of the same story, but told differently, you know what I mean?
Adam It's like here's two variants of the essential plot, you know.
Lee That's that's the I think the perfect companion place to this as well, would be Night of the Eagle.
Adam Yes.
Adam Yeah, very much so.
Lee Again, that it's that it's it's almost the same story but it's different enough that it's that yeah, you could watch them side by side and not feel like you're watching a remake.
Lee It's got enough going on to be different, but yeah, follows very much the same creepy vibes and.
Lee Yeah.
Lee Another epic.
Lee Did we cover that?
Lee I think we.
Chris I think we did.
Chris Yeah, I'm pretty sure I was just getting some flashbacks of Eagle.
Adam Yeah, we did.
Adam Yeah, definitely.
Adam Probably it could have been like four four years ago now.
Adam I think it was so long I think it might have actually been when I still put backgrounds up.
Adam Because I seem to remember my stupid fat grinning face in front of the black board with belief question mark on it.
Lee Yeah.
Adam So.
Adam yeah, so I think it was whenever we so that would have been probably when we first started recording like separately.
Lee Yeah.
Adam You know, probably so probably COVID, so it's probably about five years ago now.
Chris Could be.
Lee Yeah.
Lee But yeah, again, and Knight of the Eagle exactly the same, you know, absolutely amazing film.
Lee Brilliantly creepy and subdued and kind of under the radar.
Lee but yeah, one that you don't I I certainly didn't anyway, discover until many years later, because it isn't so well known.
Lee So when you go to your, you know, you go to your HMV or whatever, it's never in there.
Lee It's one of those things you have to really go to efforts to track down, but oh, but when you do, oh, incredible.
Adam Yeah.
Adam It's it's a weird one, and it's definitely those little sort of bits that you have to tease out of the big chunk that is hammer.
Lee Yeah.
Adam Especially because like you say.
Adam A lot of the franchise stuff there's good and bad, but but overall it's quite diminishing returns on those sort of things because you kind of know what you're getting.
Lee Yeah.
Adam Whereas actually when a when a film can turn around and give you as and this isn't based on like a classic.
Adam This was based on a book, but it wasn't like, you know, it wasn't the th and like adaction of it.
Adam You know, or whatever like that, you know.
Adam It's sort of.
Adam So I think it it can it's one of.
Adam It's wonderful that it can surprise you.
Adam So it's a shame that if you've listened to this point.
Adam Because obviously we spoil it, you should watch it before we spoil it.
Adam I cannot be held responsible for this.
Adam It's 1966.
Adam Come on.
Lee I think I'm going to have to track a copy of that book down and read it for myself because I'd be very keen to see how it reads.
Lee As Nigel Neal was saying, oh I had trouble trying to bring it to the screen and make it creepy or as creepy as the book.
Lee Yeah, so I'd be keen to give it a read and see how it how it compares, really.
Adam I cuz I think also it's it might be one of those things where because there are certain there's certain things you can do in a book that become laughable if you try and translate them onto the screen.
Adam So, but yeah, I I no, I'd be interested.
Adam Let me know if you're if you'll have success there.
Lee Yes, I shall be looking that up. oh, also,
Lee Just before we wrap up for the evening, because I didn't want to wait until next time we do the what we've been watching.
Lee because you brought it up on the last one, I did just want to say, yes, you mentioned obviously Broken Vale.
Adam Yes.
Lee On our what we've been watching.
Lee and I.
Lee Yes.
Lee We we went away and listened to the whole thing in two sittings, one drive away for the weekend and the rest and on your long drive. Oh, how creepy was that?
Adam It's brilliant, isn't it?
Adam It genuinely is.
Adam I think to be honest, I don't know, I mean Chris, it's it's available.
Adam I don't know if you're a podcast listener.
Chris This this was a podcast.
Chris Yeah, okay.
Adam Yeah.
Adam I would almost be tempted to do an episode on it.
Lee Yes, I I'd be happy to talk about it for an hour.
Lee Very happy to.
Chris And this is the one that's not like other podcasts, it's more like a radio show.
Adam It's it's essentially it's a six-part series, which is
Adam basically it's two writers and they're looking for a way to make a podcast and they the two writers play themselves and it's them looking for a podcast.
Adam And then they sort of hit upon the idea of doing stuff about the supernatural, but they don't want to do anything obvious.
Adam Like, you know.
Adam Tread the same warm paths as everyone else.
Adam So they just asked their friends if they've got any weird stories and one of them comes up.
Adam Trumps with something.
Adam And gradually it sort of seems to connect to other stories that they've heard from other friends.
Adam And yeah.
Adam It just builds into a very nice little little story.
Adam It's great.
Chris Yeah.
Lee And very good in being able to go it's very original.
Chris I was going to say it.
Chris Certainly sounds original.
Adam No, it's not not like anything I've ever heard before.
Lee And and I love that format as well.
Lee Because I find radio play, as much as I like a radio play, especially I love old time radio play.
Lee The old ones from, you know, 30s and 40s.
Lee but I I do find them a bit hard to listen to now.
Lee I don't listen to very many radio.
Lee But because it's made as a podcast rather than as a radio play.
Lee For some reason, I I just I found it so immersive and so because they are just playing themselves.
Lee They're not playing characters.
Lee They're playing themselves in a fictitious scenario.
Lee And it just it's absolutely mind blowing.
Adam Well, as I say, that first episode.
Adam Not knowing what it was other than
Adam Writers who I really liked had done another podcast.
Adam Or podcast that I really liked done another podcast.
Adam And that first episode, as as episode two got into it, I was like, right, I I've got it now.
Adam That first episode.
Adam I took it straight on face value.
Adam I thought, oh, really.
Adam This could be real.
Lee Yeah.
Adam You know, because it was just the way they did it, you know.
Adam And then it was like, oh no, right, okay, that's clearly now.
Adam I'm now getting that it's a fiction.
Adam But that first episode where it's just them and Tony Way.
Adam And that weird little story.
Adam Felt like enough of a weird little story.
Adam And then I was like, well, maybe they'll go on next week and look at something else.
Adam Or, you know, then it was like, oh, it's all starting to link up.
Adam Right, okay, it's a narrative.
Lee I've got to admit, I was starting to get the sweats at the end by the end of episode five because I was thinking, they've only got half an hour.
Lee And there is so much, and I was like, there's no way they're going to be able to wrap this up in a way that I am going to be in any way happy with.
Lee And then they totally killed it with that ending.
Lee It was so perfect.
Adam It was wonderfully because it's not an ending in a way, what they've done is they've done the smartest thing of they've sort of followed the idea of how you listen to say uncanny.
Adam But you get to the point where it's like and then do you do you get a resolution at the end of any like sort of study of the supernatural?
Adam You never get a revolution at resolution at the end of it anyway.
Adam Because it's always that classic thing, you know, it's like, will we find bigfoot?
Adam No, because I'd have fucking heard when you did, I wouldn't have waited three years for your fucking documentary.
Adam Someone would have mentioned it by now.
Adam And similarly, you know, so in in that respect, they're sort of like, oh no, we're actually.
Adam We're in the open-ended ending anyway, you know.
Adam Because that's what you'd expect from the genuine sort of paranormal podcast.
Adam I suppose.
Adam So yeah.
Lee Yeah.
Lee No, absolutely fantastic.
Lee So it was already on my radar, and then when you were excited about it as well.
Lee I was like, yeah, I need to I need to wipe wipe the whole of my playlist for the drive to Norfolk and back.
Lee And just solely focus on listening to this.
Lee Oh yeah, and it was a.
Lee It was the best choice I could possibly have made, so.
Lee Yeah, I think we definitely need to come back and talk about that for a full episode at some point.
Adam sounds like a plan.
Chris Yeah.
Adam Well, what have we got lined up next, Mr. Lee?
Lee Oh, that's an excellent question.
Lee Definitely wouldn't have done is come on here without having brought it up first.
Lee So I know what I'm doing.
Adam I think I remember, but let's see what's on.
Adam Was it Plague of Zombies?
Lee It is Plague of the Zombies.
Adam Because because these were two Hammer films that Chris was like, I hadn't heard of.
Adam And we were like, yeah, you've got to see these fuckers.
Adam So.
Lee Yeah, so Plague of the Zombies is the next episode.
Lee Again, one I absolutely love, I think I've only seen it a couple of times.
Lee So I'm definitely well ready to to give it another view.
Lee I mean it sounds like.
Chris It's going to have a lot of zombies in it.
Lee Yeah.
Adam I you you may be surprised.
Chris
Adam You won't be.
Adam No.
Chris You must be.
Adam And can I just I'm just going to I'm going to leave you with a little hint, Chris, for a while.
Adam I had a line of dialogue from the Plague of the Zombies as my text alert on my phone.
Chris Oh.
Adam And that line of dialogue was Cornwall, but it's miles away.
Lee Yeah.
Adam Yeah.
Adam That's all you know.
Chris Okay.
Adam Yeah.
Lee Oh, actually just very quickly before we sign off, as well, because I know I haven't mentioned this to Adam, but I thought I would while we're here.
Lee On the way back from Norfolk, stopped off a place called Castle Aker Priory.
Adam Oh, right.
Lee Yes, it's a big old Priory in Norfolk that is now just ruins.
Lee it's where the opening shots of the Tomb of Ligeia were shot.
Adam Oh.
Lee I managed to line up a photograph of me standing exactly where Vincent Price would have been when the young lady rides in on her horse.
Lee So I'll I shall have to share that with you.
Lee I'm very pleased with myself.
Adam Right, well, I'm I'm going to make I'm going to sort of put in a a motion here to the to the to the polit bureau, as it were.
Adam so we're doing Plague of Zombies next.
Adam I reckon after that.
Adam We do Broken Vale, give Chris, give Chris a few weeks to check it out.
Adam If he's happy with that.
Lee Yeah.
Adam And then we could do the Tomb of Ligeia, cuz I want to see how you line up.
Lee I I think I've only seen the Tomb of Ligeia once, maybe twice.
Lee I went on like a Vincent Price, Roger Coleman, I had to own them all.
Lee Yeah, I watched it when I bought it, and I don't think I've gone back again, but.
Adam Well, it'd be it not only that, but also it'd be real fun for Claire because my God, that girl loves Vincent Price.
Lee Yeah.
Adam She really, really does, it's become it's so heartening to see someone just, you know, embrace the embrace the full love of that man.
Adam Because he is extraordinary.
Lee Oh, he really is.
Lee Yeah.
Lee Absolutely fantastic.
Lee Right, thanks ever so much for listening, everybody.
Lee Go and check out The Witches, go and check out Plague of the Zombies ready for next time, and we will see you all in a fortnight's time.
Lee Thanks very much for listening.
Lee Good night.
Adam Good night.
