The Red Shoes
00:49:08
About
It’s Lady Jennifer’s birthday request; and we’re joined by previous guest Dani for “The Red Shoes” (1948). A dazzlingly beautiful film in which we learn that if a prominent figure in the arts ISN’T a plagiarist, they’re a full blown psychopath; that horse drawn shag wagons were commonplace on the continent in the 40s; and that the show must go on, even if the star has got a train on her head. Whilst the genuine terror for Lee is the mere concept of ballet; is “The Red Shoes” really horror? Probably not, but with some phantasmagoric imagery, a basis in a truly horrific fairy tale, and the main character’s disturbing mental breakdown, it certainly visits the ballpark. Watch (or re-watch) to avoid spoilers and join us.
A dancer who relies upon the doubtful comforts of human love can never be a great dancer. Never.
Famous lines
- "Time rushes by, love rushes by, life rushes by, but the Red Shoes go on." — Lermontov
- "Oh, in the end, she dies." — Lermontov
- "Why do you want to live?" — Vicky
- "To dance." — Vicky Page
Quotes verified against Wikiquote.
Transcript
Show full transcript
Lee Good evening and welcome to Horror.
Lee I'm Lee.
Chris I'm Chris.
Adam I'm Adam.
Lee And we are here for Lady Jennifer's birthday choice. Hello Lady Jennifer.
Jennifer We're having a party.
Danny Hello.
Lee It is a party. Some of us are drunk.
Chris Some of us are trying to dance.
Lee Well, we'll discuss whether it counts as dancing or not.
Lee But we have to introduce our final guest as well, this is a bit of a party episode, there are five of us this evening.
Lee We're also rejoined by frequent guest and music expert, Danny.
Danny Hello.
Lee Good evening, Danny.
Danny Good evening, thanks for having me.
Lee So we are here at the behest of Jennifer for her birthday, because she went to a ballet with Danny.
Lee A lot of booze were drunk and they decided they would like to cover.
Jennifer We had a couple of beers in the intervals, didn't we? As is appropriate as a ballet.
Lee You went to the ballet, I got wankered. That's right.
Jennifer That's right, okay.
Lee And on the train on the way home, we'd all decided that the best thing to do was to cover this movie, which I'd never seen.
Jennifer You got drunk, we convinced you.
Lee Yes.
Jennifer I can.
Chris Now what did you go and see?
Lee The end of your life.
Jennifer We went to see.
Danny It was Wolfworks which was choreographed by Wayne McGregor and music by Max Richter based on Virginia Woolf.
Danny Really, really good and first time I've seen a laser show in the Royal Opera House as well.
Adam Wow.
Danny Yeah, trying to get the kids in, you know.
Danny So.
Jennifer That was very good.
Jennifer But yes, so we convinced Lee and we shall find out if that convincing was successful or not.
Lee Now, I've got some questions. Now, just I just need clarification.
Lee Because obviously my knowledge of ballet is very limited, and it's pretty much based majoritively on what I've seen this evening.
Lee I'm just going to preempt this by apologizing to anybody who's a fan of ballet, which I know is Jennifer who did ballet, Danny who is a fan and Chris who's I did one lesson of ballet. He did, he did. I can, I can. Just to get the sweets at the end. I wasn't going to fucking out you, I was just gonna say you're a dancer. He wasn't Billy Elliot, it's all right. Yeah, that is that is a bit more recent, she does and she is getting quite obsessed, so I think I may be experiencing quite a bit more ballet in my future. You may. It might not be the end.
Lee Okay, so.
Lee So have I got it right that ballet is basically two and a half hours of music with no vocals?
Jennifer Yes.
Lee And it's all dancing.
Lee Which basically is ten moves where they just stand on their toes.
Jennifer No, no, okay.
Lee No, I'm right, okay.
Lee And you basically you have to know the story before you go in.
Jennifer But you read the story in the book that you get, yes.
Lee Right.
Lee So it's so it's a shit musical with fucking homework.
Lee How is this not, how is this not just fallen out of favor, I know it's not popular, but it should be far out.
Jennifer I feel like it's quite popular and you'll find out why by the end of this episode.
Lee Any middle class wankers who are now listening, please fuck off.
Lee We don't need you and Ellis.
Adam Could it be one of those things?
Adam I'm in.
Danny In the room right now.
Lee I bet he's included in the room right now.
Jennifer Yeah, Tom, let's play your answer.
Danny Sorry.
Lee Tom.
Jennifer Danny, readers out the door.
Danny I'm gonna love this five minutes.
Adam I'll be honest, on the basis of our response for our least haunted call out, we need all the listeners we can get.
Chris So.
Chris Is it after the tenth viewing of a ballet, that's when you appreciate it?
Danny That's a good question.
Lee I mean.
Adam If this is your only one.
Jennifer Okay, Danny, because obviously, I'm assuming you didn't do ballet, which obviously why I love it, having danced, but not you know professionally.
Danny I didn't.
Adam I thought you meant you loved it because Danny didn't do it.
Lee I mean.
Adam That threw me.
Chris I've never seen him dance at all.
Jennifer As someone.
Danny Let's let's have Jennifer. It's got a long list of women who have loved me for things I don't do.
Jennifer Danny, makes you appreciate ballet.
Danny Okay.
Danny So it was, I mean, I supposed like, like most other people, the first kind of exposure to ballet is going to be something like Swan Lake.
Jennifer Yeah, cuz it is, it's just one of those, I guess it's the starting point.
Danny Oh yeah, of course, so I've been studying violin since the age of seven.
Danny And I performed in a lot of what a lot of orchestras and a lot of string ensembles where we played music from ballet.
Danny When I did my A levels in particular, we had to we went to see a lot of ballets and musicals as part of the course.
Danny And like studying and like getting that kind of side of musical history and the orchestration.
Jennifer In general.
Danny No, I loved it.
Danny And what what really happened was you know we're all 17 or 18, being left to our own device, we were given a ticket to go to a ballet, like once every fortnight.
Danny Left to our own devices, it was, you know, there was halcyon days.
Danny Before people used to ID for anything.
Jennifer No.
Jennifer First.
Danny So, you know, we'd essentially go to the pub very, very early doors, been absolutely bladdered by the time we go to see, like, a three and a half hour ballet based on the Jack the Ripper for example.
Chris Brilliant.
Danny That's that's Lulu by Berg, just in case you wants to go and see that next time that's in town.
Danny That's a very dissonant one.
Danny But actually precursor to that was, I I remember seeing this film when I was about eight or nine years old.
Danny And I think it's it's it's just stuck in my memory ever since.
Danny It was, I vividly remember it was a Saturday afternoon, I was really pissed off, I wanted to play FIFA on the SNES.
Danny And and my mom made me stop it to watch this film.
Danny Like, you know, if if nine year old me knew what the fuck sake, man, he would have said out loud.
Danny But I just remember like watching this film and being absolutely in awe of it.
Danny It was it was the first time I was like I'd seen an old film and I hadn't felt like it was an old film.
Danny You know, it was, I think as we were discussing before, before we watched it, Adam, like it, you know, it's just a good film, not a good film for its time.
Adam You're not you're not making any allowances for it, it's it's like Hitchcock, where it's that thing of, oh no, this is just a good film, this is not, oh this is a good old film or this is a good film for its time, this is just a good film.
Danny I do still approach a lot of ballet that I see, I do go quite regularly to the Opera House still.
Danny I I still approach it music first and dance second, I don't really completely, you know, I I can understand like the emotion of the performance or stuff like that.
Danny I can understand the story.
Danny Particularly if I've read it beforehand, but I'm still catching up in that regard.
Danny Which is where I suppose Jenny will take over really.
Jennifer
Jennifer I I mean, you just watch it and you know how painful it is and how hard it is and yet it looks like it's so.
Adam Lee might not fully appreciate that.
Jennifer No, I think that's it, I think that is part of the appreciation for me.
Lee Being punched in the balls and not flinching is really hard to do, I don't want to watch someone doing that.
Jennifer Do you try it out though, should we try it.
Lee No.
Lee And and I do appreciate the music.
Lee And as you say, the film was fantastic.
Lee So I'm not rubbishing the film.
Jennifer The outfits.
Jennifer The whole set.
Jennifer I mean.
Lee Couldn't give a fuck.
Jennifer The whole couldn't give a fuck.
Lee It's.
Jennifer The shoe shop, how can you not love a shoe shop?
Lee It's just it's just it's the thing.
Lee It's it's a like you said, it's in the program, it's a one paragraph explanation of what it is.
Lee And it takes three hours of people standing on their toes.
Jennifer No, you get a whole.
Adam I mean Adam will tell us the whole red shoe story.
Adam That kind of.
Lee Yeah.
Adam They gloss over that quite dramatically in.
Jennifer You appreciate it more, Adam.
Adam It's, yeah, because so it's Hans Christian Andersen fairy tale.
Adam So it actually has a proper, well, exactly, it has a proper lineage and everything.
Adam But it was first published in 1845.
Adam Basically, Karen, an orphaned peasant girl is adopted by a rich old woman.
Adam And she grows up spoiled and it's basically a lesson in don't be a spoil ourself.
Danny So far, so Hans.
Jennifer Oh.
Adam She's Karen.
Adam She has the the old woman who adopts her, she gets her to buy her a pair of expensive tailored red shoes to replace some ones that she had from her previous parents.
Adam That are just sort of you know nackered old rough sort of.
Lee Shoes worn by bracket.
Adam Yeah, basically, yeah.
Adam She wears them to church and that's very considered very improper.
Adam Very improper.
Adam But she that doesn't deter her and then on one church visit a mysterious red-bearded man.
Adam Compliments her shoes.
Jennifer The devil.
Adam Very possibly, he taps them one by one.
Adam With his hand and says, never come off when you dance.
Adam Which admittedly sounds like don't spaff when you dance.
Adam But I think he's talking to the shoes.
Adam On leaving church, she tries a few dance steps and then finds that the shoes are actually controlling her.
Adam And she manages to bring them under control but not before they've sort of exerted a certain level of power over her.
Adam Then the adoptive mother dies.
Adam And she goes to a dance rather than the funeral.
Adam Which again, I would imagine is considered fairly improper.
Jennifer Improper.
Adam And an angel appears who curses her to dance forever.
Jennifer Oh.
Adam Double cursings.
Jennifer The shoes and her.
Adam And well, she's cursed to dance even after she's dead.
Adam The shoes take control again, she is trapped dancing, she as they say in the film.
Adam She travels all around the place just dancing permanently.
Adam Eventually, absolutely exhausted, she asks an executioner to chop her feet off.
Jennifer That's what I remember, the feet chopping off.
Adam He does that and then she has a set of wooden feet and crutches.
Adam And tries to go to church to sort of redeem herself.
Adam But every time she tries to go in, the shoes dance in front of her with her severed feet still in them.
Adam And this continues, you know.
Jennifer That would improve the ballet, wouldn't it, honey?
Lee I don't think they could do those effects enough in.
Lee And this is the problem, I don't think I would get this story.
Lee Sorry.
Adam Eventually she prays to God for help and then the angel reappears and she is forgiven.
Adam And she is saved.
Adam By having her.
Adam Her far.
Adam Her heart filled with so much joy, it explodes and she dies.
Jennifer Whoa.
Adam And that is the redemption that she is given by God.
Jennifer Exploding heart.
Adam Yes.
Adam Although apparently they did put in there something like and then she goes to heaven and no one mentions the red shoes.
Adam Like it's like some taboo subject.
Adam Like don't mention his wife, you know.
Danny So this is Old Testament God, right.
Adam Yeah, this is this is this is a cruel bastard, so.
Lee So they're they're telling all of this story without any words and purely through very, very boring dance.
Lee I don't get how I would sit in.
Adam Interpretive dance.
Lee No.
Jennifer You would have read the story first.
Lee Interpretive dance is very, very boring.
Jennifer And you would know the story and then you go to the ballet and then you'd.
Lee So it's homework.
Jennifer No, you read it at the ballet, you get it there, you get these, you know, the program.
Danny And more often than not, you know, as, as Hans Christian Anderson fairytale or, you know, Brother's Grimms fairytales have been adapted to make it more palatable for children.
Danny Then the same thing would have happened for the ballet of the red shoes as well, like, you know, just to make sure there weren't too many severed feet flying around.
Danny Which for us would have been a great children's.
Jennifer Maybe they'll remake it.
Lee I was going to say, we CGI now, maybe Marvel.
Adam I believe there is a there is another red shoes from about 2005, I think it's Korean.
Jennifer Oh.
Adam Oh.
Jennifer I mean they would have played some drums.
Adam And I'm assuming on that basis, yeah, they've probably got severed feet dancing in it, you know.
Jennifer I mean I feel we might need to hunt that down then for, you know.
Lee I mean again, I don't want to shit on this film because it was a very good film.
Chris Just take out the ballet.
Jennifer Come on, what was good about it, Lee, come on, help yourself out here.
Lee I mean I mean.
Lee It was a beautiful looking film.
Lee And the thing is, the music is fantastic.
Lee And I think.
Chris So as a musician, that's an interesting question.
Chris I guess, do you tend to listen to that sort of music?
Lee No.
Lee I wouldn't listen to that sort of music at all.
Chris But you can still appreciate.
Lee But like orchestral music.
Lee Is I mean, again, having been in a band with four or five people.
Lee I know how difficult it is to keep.
Lee Everyone.
Lee Yes, Adam, we were in that band together.
Lee I know how tight it is.
Lee To keep people in a band.
Lee So keeping an entire orchestra for a whole two and a half hours of one massive on some day.
Jennifer That's why bloke at the front with his stick.
Lee Yeah.
Lee I mean, Danny obviously is more the expert in this than I am.
Lee But I mean, it's it's.
Lee It sounds fantastic and it's amazing to see it in person is phenomenal.
Lee And I've been and seen that type of.
Lee You know, like, you know, I've been to see Jeff Wayne's War of the Worlds, just seeing a full orchestra is an incredible thing.
Lee And to feel it in person is awesome.
Lee So I get that.
Jennifer I assume this was written for the film.
Jennifer The score.
Danny Yeah, the score was so the red shoes score, well, for the actual ballet itself.
Danny And a lot of the incidental music wasn't something like you know, Copellia or Swan Lake.
Jennifer Not ballet there.
Danny That was written by Brian Easter and I believe it won best original score at the Academy Awards as well.
Jennifer Oh, wow.
Lee It's no wonder he's surprised.
Danny No, it's a stunning piece of music, it really is.
Adam And actually this was one of the few films that had best Oscar nominations except for actors. And I think it was the sniffiness was because the majority of the, well, certainly anyone who's dancing in it is a ballet dancer.
Jennifer Not an actor.
Adam Which was then we were saying before, I think that Powell and Pressburger's take on it was that they were we want to find dancers who can act, not actors who can dance.
Adam So they know that that side of it was absolutely sorted.
Jennifer Well, the majority of this is dance, isn't it?
Adam Exactly, yeah.
Lee None of those performances let you down though.
Adam No, absolutely.
Lee None of those people.
Adam I mean, the guy, the guy who's playing the choreographer, he's fantastic.
Adam Brilliant, but I do suspect that he is playing himself.
Adam Literally, I I think he's, I don't know if that's, you know.
Adam But yeah, so I mean he most of them don't have many sort of credits outside of the red shoes other than other performances or other filmed ballets.
Adam In fact, one of the weirdest things is that the principal, the principal male dancer.
Adam Is is the child catcher.
Lee You know what?
Adam From Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.
Lee I almost said, he really reminds me of the child catcher.
Lee And I was like, he's just cuz he's dancing.
Adam Yes.
Lee Ballet.
Adam Robert Helpmann, but he was a ballet dancer and that's why he got the.
Jennifer Which was first, this was first.
Jennifer I assume, yeah.
Adam This was long before Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.
Adam But also if you look through his credits, the amount of ballets in which he plays the devil.
Jennifer Yeah.
Adam It's it's really sort of.
Jennifer It's his eyebrows.
Adam I think it must be, but something cemented that career.
Jennifer It's typecast.
Lee I mean, he's fantastic.
Lee And everybody in it is like the the.
Lee And that's that's the thing, it was like that, I I didn't dislike the film.
Lee Just to be absolutely clear.
Lee I know I said it.
Jennifer But it hasn't made you love ballet.
Lee No, no, it's made me hate ballet even more.
Jennifer Let's see what Chris thinks after being introduced to horror and welcome to ballet.
Chris What made the film good was that you potentially could enjoy it without seeing too much ballet.
Chris Because they did keep it relatively low, there was just the large section in the middle throughout the rest there wasn't a huge amount, there was snippets.
Adam It reminded me, it reminded me of like a sports movie almost because the.
Chris You're done. You know, you have to help teams around the subject, but it's not necessarily.
Jennifer The mighty ducks.
Adam Yeah.
Adam I was thinking Raging Bull mostly, but you know.
Jennifer What's that one, we'll build it, they all come.
Adam Field of dreams.
Danny Although I suppose you know like most sports films the centerpieces are in it, it's in the center, it's in the middle rather than at the beginning.
Adam They want to put those bits in.
Adam And it's yeah, I think it's yeah, I don't think you need to be, you certainly.
Adam I mean it's made Lee ballet averse, but much in the same way that the first Sam Raimi Spider-Man gave me vertigo.
Adam You know, it's just it's just going to be.
Jennifer I don't like yours.
Jennifer Yeah.
Chris So the other film that I've seen that is ballet is Black Swan.
Chris Which I did really like that and I was expecting this to be.
Jennifer More like that.
Chris Yeah.
Jennifer I feel like it was.
Jennifer Chris, that was probably.
Chris It was very.
Jennifer You could.
Jennifer Although.
Chris Although there was.
Chris Although there was a lot more comedy in this, which I thought they they did really well.
Chris So Danny, what you said earlier about it not seeming like an old film.
Chris As we were watching, I was thinking this does feel kind of modern in a way.
Jennifer It feels.
Chris And I don't know, yeah, many other old films that I've seen that I would have thought that about.
Chris But yeah, I I did think the acting, comedy and the way it was shot all seemed to lend itself to.
Chris I think as well that the kind of meta story to it that it's happening to her in real life.
Chris He's trying to push her to become this, you know, ultimate dancer.
Chris And that's what the Red Shoes ballet is about.
Danny And I guess it is very meta.
Danny I mean there's it literally highlights the Checkoff's gun in the first that's what happens there at the end, well she dies, of course.
Danny Sorry, it's quite a.
Adam And that.
Adam Also, I think the fact.
Danny For a 75 year old film.
Danny That's on you, fuck it, yeah, if you're out that point, yeah.
Chris I'm I'm going to say most of the people listening may not.
Jennifer Is it 75 years old?
Danny It celebrates its 75th anniversary this year was made in 1948.
Jennifer That's ridiculous.
Danny the BFI are going to be putting on a Powell and Pressburger season in October with a 4K restoration of this as the center piece of that.
Jennifer Oh, wow, I feel we should go.
Lee That'll look fantastic.
Lee Because it was a beautiful looking film.
Danny I mean, well, I mean.
Jennifer Will it be ballet there, darling?
Jennifer You have to wear your earphones.
Lee Oh yeah.
Lee No, I'm not going.
Adam Yeah.
Adam But also, I love the fact that it goes out of.
Adam It's it's a you know, it does it as a pure experience of the ballet, it doesn't stick to right, factually, they're on stage doing this ballet.
Adam They go out into the fantasia, you know, fantasmagorical levels of what it's projecting rather than the actual, you know.
Adam It's not we're just going to film them performing this on stage or whatever like that.
Adam Because there there are certain parts of it that clearly could not take place on stage.
Adam Yeah.
Lee But they the effects look great as well.
Lee I mean, for the time, I I thought they looked really good.
Danny I mean everyone celebrates the, you know, the match cut at the beginning of 2001, but the bone becomes the space.
Danny I would say that there are about five or six match cuts in this film that piss all over that.
Lee Yeah.
Danny Absolutely incredible.
Danny Yeah.
Danny And like, the technically.
Danny It's a brilliant film.
Danny The editing's incredible, like especially when she's performing in the small theater in the Saturday Matinee and you see the camera spinning as she's doing all of those.
Danny It's just stunning.
Chris I also I went ice skating the other day and keep seeing all of the bigger skaters and did manage to spin.
Jennifer Oh, good.
Chris She was very excited about that and I guess that does come from.
Chris ballet.
Chris And so I thought I'll give it a go.
Chris And I practiced and practiced and practiced.
Chris And then eventually I did get it and I got dizzy so quickly.
Chris I was like, yeah, I don't know, this must be my age.
Chris Yeah, I don't know.
Jennifer It's.
Chris It's just.
Jennifer You have to find a spot where you can handle this.
Adam I called Bert, just looked at your dinner.
Adam I said Bert, that was made yesterday.
Adam It's like, Ted, will you sit down cuz you make me dizzy?
Adam If I'm making you dizzy, just look at your dinner.
Lee Yeah, I.
Lee Yeah, I mean it it was, it like you say, the camera work and everything was so.
Jennifer What was of its time just to put it in perspective, like what else was out?
Chris The smoking everywhere.
Jennifer Oh yeah, they.
Jennifer I mean what other films were doing.
Adam I'm thinking 1948.
Jennifer I mean it was after Gone with the Wind.
Chris Yeah, it reminded me of Scarlet O'Hara.
Chris Like you felt like that was a you know.
Lee Her outfits were outstanding that massive green ball gown that she wore, the purple thing underneath just looked fantastic.
Jennifer Even her hairstyle was very Scarlet.
Adam The the crown had an element of Man's Ash tray, though.
Jennifer Oh.
Adam Yeah.
Adam You know, it's like this is a far too elaborate ash tray for, you know, for for normal for 10 10 PH.
Jennifer But what about as in an opera queen, I mean, did she have an ash tray like that?
Adam I there was a lot of items like that, a lot of a lot of colored glass.
Jennifer Yeah.
Danny I just had a quick Google.
Danny Of course in 1948.
Danny The only two I actually recognized are Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein.
Jennifer Oh.
Jennifer You've done that one.
Danny You have.
Danny And Rope.
Adam Oh wow.
Danny So that's how far back in Hitchcock's career we are at this point as well.
Adam Wow.
Adam But then actually we need to do Rope as well.
Adam That's that's the one.
Lee We need to cover.
Lee No spoilers.
Adam That's something to come out of this.
Adam But then I think that's, but then that's probably the the whole fact is that those are the three films that are like that you recognize on that list.
Jennifer At that time.
Adam Because they're the ones that have stood up.
Jennifer Oh, yeah.
Adam You know.
Jennifer But where was Rope in Hitchcock's sort of career?
Jennifer That was how many in or roughly.
Adam I mean he was working from the silent era.
Jennifer Okay, right.
Adam But I mean it's before we hit that, that, you know, that run of like North by Northwest into Vertigo, into Psycho, into Birds.
Adam Yeah, very early.
Adam Rear Window obviously.
Adam But still, yeah, I mean it's not very.
Adam Just.
Adam Because so Powell and Pressburger were a team and they did everything, they were writers, producers, directors and everything else like that.
Adam They did, I think they made about they they made about 16 films together and they called them they called the production company The Archers.
Adam So that's what the bows I think at the start.
Jennifer Oh.
Jennifer It's like The Archers, where's the.
Adam Because it is slightly confusing because yeah, because the first first time I ever saw a film that started with that, I was like, is this as in The Archers?
Jennifer Yeah.
Adam Because it's quite confused. Is it a farm show?
Jennifer Or peaches and cream.
Adam But yeah, they so and they sort of and unusually for this sort of thing.
Adam Even when they went off and did their own stuff, like they sort of basically producing throughout the sort of 40s and 50s.
Adam Went off and did their own stuff, but actually were still friends.
Adam And it was an they just decided they wanted to move on and.
Adam It wasn't one of those things where it's like I've now decided that this man needs to never darken my door again.
Jennifer It was the film that they had to leave completely and go start another.
Danny So their their run of films was, yeah.
Jennifer Yeah.
Jennifer Did they work for a company, as it were, or that was their company?
Adam The Archers was their company.
Adam I mean this was this was with Rank.
Lee Right.
Adam Who apparently Jay Arthur Rank, like the head of the Rank organization walked out of the screening of this.
Lee Really?
Adam And basically.
Jennifer Is he like Lee?
Adam I think it, yeah, I think you like the ballet.
Adam But no, basically Rank like it went over budget and you can see it probably went over budget.
Jennifer I mean, but not a ballet shoes, massive.
Lee Massive outfits.
Lee You spent a lot of extra.
Adam You've got like basically a whole ballet company in there, you know.
Adam But yeah, so it went over budget and Rank, the Rank organization was basically just like we've been saddled with this, so they didn't release it for a year.
Lee Oh.
Adam And like apparently they even, like as the ultimate slide, they left it on the the like.
Adam What's it like the cargo loading bay.
Jennifer Oh, they didn't even store it away.
Adam Didn't even bother putting it away, they were like, nah, fucking leave it there and so the cans were just left there on the thing.
Lee Oh my god.
Adam So it's lucky it's even around.
Lee That'd been a loss.
Adam And then they put it out in London Art House Cinemas.
Adam But.
Adam Fortunately, it just got brilliant word of mouth.
Adam And then they were like, oh, maybe we have got something, so they started doing it more and then I think it was like another year before it was out in the States.
Adam But I think in the end.
Adam Where is it?
Adam Like yeah, they.
Jennifer It was American made though, but then to come over here and.
Adam Yeah, but I mean Rank was, so but the Archers were, well, Michael Powell's British and Emre Pressburger's Hungarian.
Jennifer So was it filmed over here?
Adam So it was filmed over here.
Adam And it's like like the the most majority of the ballet cast were the Sadlers Wells Ballet and like, but yeah, it actually they.
Adam The San Francisco Fine Arts Theater screamed it four times a day solidly for two years.
Jennifer Oh, wow.
Jennifer That's popular.
Adam So, you know, they.
Adam Really did not realize what they had.
Adam But then when I was looking into it, apparently like Powell and Pressburger stuff at the time was kind of mixed.
Adam It wasn't an immediate success, everything all their films were kind of like they gradually got more sort of prestige.
Jennifer Do you think it was like lack of money?
Jennifer Lack of, you know.
Adam No, no.
Jennifer It was at the time.
Adam It was just I think it was just literally like the critics were.
Adam To be honest.
Adam I think it was probably just too fucking new.
Jennifer Yeah.
Adam It was too fresh that they were like people like, well, I don't understand this because this isn't people.
Adam This isn't two people.
Adam This isn't two people in a room talking.
Danny So cameras can move then.
Adam Ten minutes and then we go outside for ten and then come back in for another. Cans can move this, color, super in position and things like that.
Adam You know, and and cutting, you know.
Adam And yeah, so I think they, but gradually they sort of built up a name for themselves.
Adam And then by the 60s, they were very much a that's when they really were appreciated.
Adam That actually we.
Adam Had these people making these really good films, because the the only other.
Adam The only other Powell and Pressburger film I've seen is A Matter of Life and Death.
Adam Which is really worth seeing.
Adam It's basically a RAF pilot.
Adam David Niven plays an RAF pilot who dies, goes to heaven.
Adam But wants to come back.
Adam But the curious thing they do is that heaven is in black and white.
Adam And reality is in color.
Adam Now, usually you sort of do like the Wizard of Oz sort of thing where you go to the the fantasy world is the one you do.
Adam But yeah, it's very austere sort of like black and white photography when they're in heaven and there's this beautiful image of holes in the sky with people looking down through them.
Adam As like windows onto people in heaven observing things on Earth.
Adam And again, it's one of those things that's like, this is from the 40s, this this is really, you know.
Adam It it looks good, it would look good now, you would compliment it now.
Adam And much in the sort of saying way that like the whole red shoe sequence in this is so extraordinary, you know.
Adam But but no, they they've definitely, you know, they've definitely worth and then we will be doing Peeping Tom.
Adam Which essentially ended Michael Powell's career because by then.
Adam They've got to the point of like, hey, these are these guys who did all these prestigious films.
Adam And then it's like, he's done a mucky slasher film, what did he do that for?
Adam Much much like Hitchcock and Psycho, where it was like everyone was like, what's this dirty little weird movie that he's made?
Adam And actually, yeah.
Danny Although then again, I mean, you know, one of the other Powell and Pressburger films was Black Narcissus, which was you know, pre as much as you could get away with with the Hays Code.
Adam Yeah.
Danny Peeping Tom was obviously when people were just kind of like, Hays Code, I've got that.
Danny Maybe it was just a again, like everything else they did, everyone was playing catch up to it.
Danny Because it was it was just so frequently ahead of its time.
Jennifer Yeah.
Adam I mean, in terms of in terms of pure horror.
Adam Obviously we've got the fairy tale.
Adam I mean, basically someone is driven to suicide, so that's already, you know, that's pretty much on the cards.
Lee And that was my thought watching it.
Lee The whole time I was like, this isn't horror, it's the horror of this that they've made me watch two hours of that.
Jennifer Yes, Lee.
Lee But then the last ten minutes I was like, nope, now it's all kicked in.
Lee And yeah, it totally is.
Jennifer I wrote down earlier, slow burn, like slow burn.
Jennifer But it gets there.
Lee And I thought you were burning me.
Lee But no.
Lee It definitely did, I mean, it definitely falls into our wheelhouse.
Danny I would say that, you know, while you were being bored shitless by the dancer, a lot of that imagery would really comfortably fall into.
Adam Absolutely.
Danny You know, into the realm of horror as well.
Danny Especially like the I think I don't think it was the newspaper person.
Danny Which I still can't believe they managed to.
Jennifer How do they do that?
Adam Yeah, it's incredible, isn't it?
Danny No idea.
Danny No idea.
Adam Literally from what I can gather.
Jennifer Got some newspaper on.
Adam Yeah.
Lee Oh, that is really impressive.
Jennifer Very clever.
Adam Yeah.
Adam I mean that whole bit.
Adam With the cellophane imagery.
Jennifer Yeah, that was cool as well.
Adam Yeah.
Danny Where the camera's like a group of people have become like a gelatinous blob.
Danny And they're advancing towards her.
Danny That is just like.
Lee It's almost.
Adam That's quite Lynchian.
Lee I say Roger Corman, he's got that very like psychedelic.
Adam Yeah, that's it.
Lee Hallucinogenic colors.
Lee Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was really it was a beautiful film.
Lee I'm definitely not knocking it.
Danny I do have to disagree with the whole, you know, ballet doesn't tell a story.
Danny Just but specifically with this, I would say.
Danny Because throughout that story and throughout like the, so there's there's the scene where she's dancing on the stage and then Craster's in the conducting.
Danny Then he comes up and then it match cuts to him as a dancer and then he's still.
Danny It's all kind of like it's it's it's not just about what it's not just foreshadowing what's going to happen in the film, it's also her mental state, her emotional state while she's doing it.
Danny And and that power struggle between what she wants, you know, in terms of career.
Jennifer That's why women at the time again.
Jennifer It's a kind of, you know, that whole thing of saying, well, actually, you can have one or the other.
Chris Yeah, shoes.
Jennifer I mean it's.
Danny Even the choice that women have to make.
Jennifer Yeah, yeah.
Lee And I do agree with that.
Lee But as ballet dancers on a stage.
Jennifer No kicking feet.
Lee That wouldn't have happened like that was all film effects.
Lee Rather than something you could have portrayed on the ballet stage.
Lee That would have been I don't know how that.
Jennifer I was thinking you know the whole mirror with her in the shop.
Jennifer That could have been Pepper's Ghost.
Adam Yeah.
Lee They could have done that.
Lee Yeah.
Lee Yeah, it could have been Pepper's Ghost, but then it would have had to have.
Jennifer Well, similar to her, just a ballet dancer underneath.
Chris I would say, I don't know if you agree as well, but I got that from her performance very much so and more of a Sheer's, well, first and foremost, she was.
Adam Yeah.
Danny Yeah.
Danny You know, repe ballet dancer.
Danny It was her first ever film role and she didn't do very much else other than that.
Adam No.
Adam Because I mean, she left, basically, when ballet, because obviously ballet dancers, it's always a horrendous fucking toll physically.
Adam Probably more so than like even athletes and things like that.
Adam You know, it's just it does.
Jennifer It gives you tied by.
Adam 25, 30.
Adam I think it was 27 and she and she was going to move into acting.
Adam But yeah, she didn't do much.
Adam But watching this, because this is the only I mean, she's in Peeping Tom as well, but this is this is the only film I've seen her in like properly watching.
Adam And I'm like, you're a fucking good actress.
Adam Do you know what I mean?
Danny And her first role, 22 years old.
Danny Stunning.
Adam And and it but like you say, because she's a good actress and it comes, it does come out in the fucking dancing, there is the it's definitely there.
Adam And.
Adam Yeah, I just think it's sort of I mean it's just the weirdest thing that you were like.
Adam Right, we'll go out and find these people who can do who can do the physical demand of actually doing the ballet.
Adam But actually they can act as well.
Jennifer So how did they find her?
Jennifer I mean she was obviously famous already.
Adam She was in the basically a lot of them came from the Sadlers Wells Ballet.
Adam She was the Prima ballerina there.
Adam I think apparently at the time in she was ranked, I don't know if ranked is the right word.
Adam But basically it was Margot Fonteyn and then her.
Jennifer All right, oh, wow.
Adam So she was.
Jennifer Everyone knows Margot Fonteyn.
Adam Yeah, so she and similarly Robert Helpmann was the was the primary male dancer at Sadler's Wells as well.
Adam So a lot of it was they may have swept in.
Lee And went, hey, we need some dancers.
Adam Yeah, and just so happened that they actually found people who can act as well, do do the role properly and everything.
Adam And she was I mean that was the thing she was noted as well because you know the hair is natural, the eyes and that.
Jennifer Well I know, I kept looking at her hair going, that's not natural.
Lee But no, she dyed that, she's got very stunning look.
Jennifer Normally ballerinas have it all up in a bun.
Jennifer But again for this, you've got the red hair, like it's quite, I suppose symbolic perhaps of that whole, you know, red shoes and everything else.
Adam She she ended up married to the journalist Ludovic Kennedy, who apparently saw the film.
Adam And went, I want her.
Jennifer I want her.
Jennifer I'll marry her.
Adam And then he basically pestered her for about a year.
Jennifer Wow.
Lee And then.
Jennifer Yeah.
Jennifer You think coming down the film.
Jennifer She might have learned, you know what, that's true.
Adam Days in the misogyny where you could just it's it's Yeah, I mean the warning signs should have been there, he's sitting there doing his magisterial take on 10 Rillington Place.
Adam I'm not really sure if this is going to be for me, but but yeah, it's but Marius Goring who plays, oh, I can't remember what his name is.
Lee I'm not really sure if this is going to be for me, but but yeah, it's but Marius Goring who plays, oh, I can't remember what his name is.
Adam Julian Craster, yeah.
Adam He basically was, I mean he he is an actor.
Adam He is an actor.
Lee He is an actor.
Adam An actor, actor, but he ended up.
Danny Yeah, first role, 22 years old.
Adam Well, not ended up, but he basically he was a big movie actor and then he moved more into telly, so during the 60s and 70s, he's in like Hammer House of Horror.
Adam Hammer House of Mystery and Suspense, Tales of the Unexpected, he's in Evil of the Daleks.
Adam He's in just he basically that's what he moved into.
Adam But I actually had to double check it because he looks so much like the lead actor from Peeping Tom, that because he looks quite.
Adam He's tall, you know, he looks quite dramatic and yeah, so I just I think he's good.
Adam Is he good?
Lee Yeah.
Adam Yeah, I mean, it's also Marius Goring is just one of the most spectacular names.
Adam As it is.
Adam You know, Julian Craster suddenly is like, well, that's John Smith.
Danny I was I was keeping an eye out, I mean, obviously, I've seen this film a few times before.
Danny But so when he's performing for Lementov when he comes in and, you know, and he's playing the piano.
Adam I was going to ask you actually, yeah.
Danny Yeah, cuz one of my pet peeves is when.
Danny They're clearly not playing an instrument that they're supposed to be.
Danny I I no word of a lie, I've only seen 12 Years a Slave once because why the fuck would you ever want to watch it more than once.
Danny It's, you know, great film, horrific subject.
Adam Yeah.
Danny But there was a scene where so the lead character in that is a fiddle player, he's not playing it.
Danny Took me out of the scene and something really horrific happens in it as well.
Danny And he's not playing.
Lee Fucking violin.
Danny No.
Adam I've reserved it.
Danny But in this, he was playing it, he he had to have been there was like the octave movements with what was happening with the left hand as well, it's definitely.
Adam Fun enough when when that bit came up.
Adam I was like, I must remember I was start actually, cuz it must be, you know, really great when you.
Jennifer We hope they got the ballerina, why would they not get someone that could actually play.
Danny This is why I respect Pixar and Disney so much when they make like, so something like Coco.
Danny Every single hand movement in the left hand of the guitar is absolutely perfect, they really do their homework for it.
Lee Never watched crossroads.
Danny Or the British kids ones.
Lee No, the movie with the kid from the Karate Kid, they did it like, yes.
Lee So they did a film about Robert Johnson with Ralph Macho playing it.
Lee No.
Adam Oh, right, I see.
Lee All right, I see.
Lee Robert Johnson.
Lee Takes him under his wing, and it ends up he becomes better than Robert Johnson.
Lee And then he ends up playing against Satan's own guitarist.
Jennifer But can the not playing guitar.
Lee That's the problem.
Lee I mean it was one of those films that came out not long after Karate Kid, so as a 10 year old kid I've probably seen it two dozen times and loved it.
Lee But yeah, my father always sat and watched me and went, fuck off, every time he picked up the guitar.
Adam I had a weird moment there where you said crossroads, in my head I heard trespass.
Adam You know that film where Ice Cube, where they're like two firemen go to find treasure in a building.
Adam I was like, I'm not sure what the relevance is here.
Lee Ice Cube.
Adam I don't remember that scene at all where they're playing the fugal horn.
Lee He's not playing the fugal horn.
Adam He's not playing that fugal horn.
Lee He's not playing that fugal horn.
Adam Yeah.
Adam I mean this is a film I've always wanted to see.
Jennifer Oh, good.
Adam And now I'm very glad that I have.
Jennifer Oh, good.
Adam That was, yeah.
Chris So Chris, as you brought up Black Swan.
Chris Did you find a lot of similarities or differences between it, because I I was there was another character that I was meaning to talk to you about, I don't know if you picked up on?
Chris Okay, so what it what it set me thinking was, because in Black Swan they they're sort of pushing her to a breaking point.
Chris And in this, I was wondering how, what they're going to show, what's what's the purpose, and when she left it wasn't entirely clear what is she going to do now.
Chris She kind of suggested she might work elsewhere.
Jennifer She's married.
Chris But then she did, Yeah, and so then when she comes back because she still does really want to work for him, knowing that that is who's going to push her to become the best she could be.
Chris And then yeah, how much does.
Chris To become the best have to have some level of pain, like Adam said, you know, just how grueling it can be to be a ballerina and to be the best.
Chris And so yeah, like do you have to be pushed right to that edge and then getting pushed over it as both of them do.
Chris But yeah.
Chris I don't know who's who else was it.
Chris So the character that Moira Riley plays.
Chris In Black Swan is very, very clearly modeled, I I think anyway.
Chris On the Primo Ballerina in the Red Shoes.
Jennifer Before.
Chris I was thinking that.
Chris That's why.
Chris And as.
Chris Well, those close-up shots of her in the makeup is it's got to be a direct from there.
Chris That was.
Chris I was thinking that.
Chris I mean he must be a fan.
Chris He don't just pull Black Swan out of nowhere.
Jennifer I was thinking I'm doing that makeup for the next time I'm dressing up.
Jennifer Why not?
Chris Black Swan, but it's anything like it's brilliant, isn't it?
Chris It just adds to the look.
Chris Surely, if you were going to do a ballet film, what would you go to and watch.
Lee They're the only two I know.
Chris I was going to say, how many others are there that may have some similarities?
Chris I can literally name these two.
Chris This film about ballet, full stop, I think.
Chris Yeah.
Chris I mean it's not watch it, but I know it's vaguely setting the ballet world.
Chris But yeah, but again, even like the whole, you know, how how far do you have to be, can you be pushed to a certain point where how far do you have to go to achieve greatness.
Chris Where I love that scene where as you noted, they're sleeping in separate beds.
Chris But he gets up because he's woken up with this melody and he goes straight to the piano.
Chris Meanwhile, she's looking at her drawer of her shoes and realizing what she's lost.
Chris And it just it just completely shows in that moment, like what you have to give up in order to pursue something.
Chris Or what you have to leave behind.
Chris Which you may or may not agree with.
Chris But.
Adam Well, I thought it was interesting that she came out and supported him because I was trying to imagine.
Jennifer That's what women do.
Adam Well, yeah, no, that's showing that that is the role she's taken now.
Adam She still misses that, but she's trying to be there for him.
Adam You know, in the middle of the night, two in the morning when he's playing this new melody.
Chris But I think that's one of the reasons this film still feels so modern as well, because it's even having that discussion.
Chris Even though it's set in 1948.
Chris Which as well was thinking like that's yeah, three years post the end of World War two.
Chris They're just looking all right.
Jennifer Yeah.
Lee But he was the one who left his musical to come to her when it was her opening night.
Chris Yeah.
Lee That's power.
Jennifer What about.
Lee That's power, that's control, that's text, but gaslight.
Jennifer Yeah, what about, is that just me going?
Chris He looks like a fucking SS officer.
Adam He looks the weirdest bit.
Adam He comes in in like a wet look like in a star po com.
Lee I said that, but he wasn't, well, I'm not waiting two hours for the fucking to go in there.
Lee Exactly, I'm not waiting two hours for her to start.
Lee No, you've gone all that way.
Lee What difference does an opening night make.
Adam I I had to look it up, though.
Adam Because the weirdest fucking thing happened there, cuz I was like, I fucking know that voice on the radio.
Adam Patrick Troughton.
Adam Was the bloke apologizing to him.
Adam And then.
Adam I mean this suggests that I might have spent far too much time watching.
Adam I know that voice, what is it?
Lee Well you say that.
Lee The the one of the very opening scenes when they're all running up the stairs.
Lee Which again, I think ages.
Lee This film more than anything.
Lee Everyone's dashing into the ballet.
Lee I was like, nobody gives a fuck.
Chris I love the fact.
Jennifer Danny clarified that for us.
Jennifer Actually, I think you're fine.
Lee He did.
Lee He did.
Lee He clarified.
Lee When they're running up the stairs, the guy who is standing there who clearly works in the theater, who's trying to sort of slow them all down.
Lee Yeah, that is the guy from the Ghoul, I'm fairly certain, who's the family solicitor.
Lee I think it is, who says, come in or go out.
Adam Yeah.
Lee I'm fairly certain it's Matt Lee.
Adam I'm pretty sure it is.
Lee But that, I mean, even down to that.
Lee I love that that I think gave you the the scope.
Lee Of ballet in a weird way.
Lee Where it was like half of them are there for the dancers, half of them are there for the music.
Lee So you've got that immediate dynamic going on anyway.
Lee Which is the essence of the film.
Lee And they really they're against each other as well, like the people who are there for the music and the people who are there for the dancing.
Lee Are almost like when you go and see a sports game and you're two separate teams. But even he in the start, he is saying, no, this is how I'm playing it.
Lee And she's going, no, this is how I'm dancing it.
Lee And again, you've got that until he suddenly goes to, oh, it's all right, I'll do it in your tempo.
Lee You know.
Lee So against.
Lee As long as you put out in the back and come.
Lee So he's like, no, he just married me.
Lee Yeah.
Lee So.
Lee Yeah, he's married me.
Lee Yeah.
Lee But yeah, no, it's interesting.
Lee That difference between the two.
Lee Oh, definitely, you know, in an orchestra, you've got hierarchy between the sections.
Lee Let alone anyone else.
Lee On stage.
Lee I mean it's a lot of egos and a lot of people.
Lee I mean the people who are there are, you know, the greatest that they can be at the top of their game.
Lee So yeah, you can totally see how you've got a lot of ego there and a lot of people who have got something to prove.
Lee All battling against each other.
Lee In a very small space.
Lee And people are going to start niggling and being.
Lee But also you get that's where you get the point where you can have the the leader of the company.
Lee Becomes Luke God almighty.
Lee I thought this earlier, like that guy, he doesn't do fuck all.
Lee He he pays.
Lee He pays the people, but ultimately he doesn't.
Lee He's not a dancer and he's not a music.
Lee Like he's there.
Lee And everyone prays to him, but he doesn't do anything.
Lee It's like Tony Wilson and Factory Records.
Lee He said that he couldn't he couldn't sing, couldn't play an instrument.
Lee But the privilege of paying for pressing Joy Division's first album, he's like, that's my contribution to the cultural heritage of England.
Lee And I suppose it's the same thing if you can't do that, at least you can.
Lee facilitate it.
Lee Yeah, bring the right people in and everything.
Lee You know what?
Lee Fuck Barbie, Red Shoes and Oppenheimer would be a great double bill.
Lee Yeah.
Lee I hereby declare Red Shoes the new.
Lee Oh.
Lee No.
Lee No, Redheimer sounds terrifying.
Lee I've Redheimer.
Lee Give me some cream.
Lee Yeah.
Lee Yeah.
Lee Yeah.
Lee Yeah.
Lee Yeah.
Lee Yeah.
Lee Yeah.
Lee Yeah.
Lee We should watch first.
Lee I don't know, I'd have to toss the coin.
Lee And hope he explodes and kills me.
Lee I'm sure he'll have his big opening night a lot earlier.
Lee Yeah.
Lee On that note.
Lee I guess.
Lee Yeah.
Lee I'm sure.
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